[Unknown008]

While I do agree on Churchill's and Livingstone's quotes I cannot accept the first one. We are AALWAYS learning from others' experiences. We start learning from others when we go to the kindergarden and we go on through schools and colleges. Then at work and in our carrier when we avail ourselves of the experiences of those that came before us.
Other than that, what has the said quote with the subject matter being debated here?

Sorry for the first quote, but it was from a book, where the 'learn' was not what you were thinking of. I meant doing exactly the same thing as another, in his ways, actions even thoughts! I just didn't want to modify the quote to keep its originallity.


Careful, career, not carrier! :rolleyes:

And if you didn't know, I was in that thread from its beginning, even if I didn't post so often.

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

If you met someone you loved, how would you ask for OSE that that person loves you?

Peace.

[sassyT]

For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.

As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.

Have a nice day, Fred.


.

.

I'm Afriad that day will come. You can believe me or not but one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is God. Including you Cred. The day will come... ;)

[NeedKarma]

I'm Afriad that day will come. You can believe me or not but one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is God. Including you Cred. The day will come...

Nah. Just saying doesn't make it so.

[sassyT]

Nah. Just saying doesn't make it so.

I guess time will tell, right

[NeedKarma]

Agreed. Call me when you're dead and tell me what happened.

[gromitt82]

Sorry, I don't follow something simply because it's popular. And yes, I do believe in myself ... and my family, and my friends, and that the sun will come up tomorrow, and that I like cinnamon buns, I believe in a lot of things, just not in a god that I should worship.

That is perfectly fine with me. And as I do not think I will call you from the "other side" (in the first place, because I'm not sure of the communication facilities I may find and secondly, assuming there would be any, nobody knows for sure whether you may not leave before I do) my simple message is that pretty soon (I'm, of course, speaking in terms of cosmic time) you will certainly find out by yourself.

[NeedKarma]

Well we all will won't we. :)

[gromitt82]

Well we all will won't we. :)

Yes, indeed! :D:D

[arcura]

NeedKarma,
I believe in a God I should worship and THAT gives me great joy and happiness that you cannot experience.
There is nothing. NOTHING, that compares with the awesomeness of God.
Only a person who believes in God can know that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[NeedKarma]

Only a person who believes in God can know that.

Sorry Fred you are wrong. How can you tell others they are not happy when they are? That is extremely arrogant. I have the same joy and happiness as you experience if not more, and this is true in millions of people who do not believe in the same god in the same way as you do. I know you want to get into a pissing contest over who is more happy but that's pointless don't you think?

[michealb]

If you met someone you loved, how would you ask for OSE that that person loves you?

Peace.

By their actions of course. I wouldn't let someone treat me badly and take it on faith that they love me would you?

Of course the other difference is I know it is possible to love someone. So I can infer that others can love as well.

However if that same person said that bigfoot stole their socks, it would require more evidence because what they were saying would no longer fit with my existing knowledge. First there is the question if bigfoot even exists and even if bigfoot does exist why would he want their socks.

So in order to have faith in god you have to ask yourself why would big foot steal someone's socks.

[arcura]

NeedKarma,
I'm right BUT you'll never know it because there is no way that you can.
You must experience it to know.
I have.
You have not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[NeedKarma]

Fred,
I'm right BUT you'll never know it because there is no way that you can.
You must experience it to know.
I have.
You have not.
Take care
NK


See it doesn't matter which side says it.

[gromitt82]

NeedKarma,
I believe in a God I should worship and THAT gives me great joy and happiness that you cannot experience.
There is nothing. NOTHING, that compares with the awesomeness of God.
Only a person who believes in God can know that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I do not think Arcura is disputing your happiness or what others may experience. But it is true that HIS JOY AND HAPPINESS IS OF A TYPE AND HAS CERTAIN CHARACTERISTICS ONLY UNDERSTANDABLE BY THOSE WHO SHARE HIS BELIEF, as I do.
This only means that his happiness and joy ARE DIFFERENT to the happines and joy experience by someone who does not believe as he does. He is not saying that his happiness is better than yours. But his assert is that his happiness has one component that you -because of your atheism- cannot imagine. Because believing in GOD as we do
Gives us a kind of peace of mind very difficult to attain without any beliefs.
At the beginning of our Spanish Civil War (1936/1939) I was 11 years old. The 19th of July (when the war started in Barcelona) was a Sunday and I was attending Mass at our parish with my grandmother.
Suddenly, a group of 6 or 7 anarchists stormed into the church with their guns and pistols and went straight to the altar to get hold of the 3 priests that were currently celebrating the Mass.
They took them out into the square by the church and, while all the people remained inside the church not daring to do anything, a few boys like me went out into the street to see what was going to happen.
The priests were standing against the wall of the church with the assassins pointing their guns to them.
The one who commanded the group shouted that if they wanted to save their lives ALL they had to do was to renege of their God and claim aloud it was an invention of the church (which is what some people still say right now).
The 2 younger priests fell down on their knees crying and saying that God was a lie and didn't exist at all.
But the vicar, who was around 40, stretched out his arms as in a cross, smiled at the gunmen, and while saying he forgave them he begged them to shoot him...
Which they did, right away in front of a few horrified persons and us. I never forgot that terrible moment.
Now, the 2 young priests started to run yelling and we never saw them again. Their faith was weak and they were probably thinking of the kind of earthy happiness you are referring to, which is perfectly legitimate, but not good enough to enjoy the other one.
The other one, to which Arcura is referring to, is of course what the Vicar was savouring an enjoying in sweet anticipation. And this is why he was smiling before dying and forgiving his executioners. His Faith was actually telling him that in a few more seconds he would be enjoying a PERFECT HAPPINESS that stands no comparison with anything down here.
The same happiness that made the primitive Christians sing when they were facing the lions at the Roman Circus...
It is not a matter of courage but of FAITH with capital letters.

Mark 11:22-24 22 says: Jesus said to them in reply, "Have faith in God.
Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.

This verse of the Bible is the origin of the adage "Faith move mountains" and it is true to explain what someone can do when he/she REALLY has faith.

And I'm not actually referring only to Christians but to whoever who has TRUE FAITH in something supernatural.

This is the difference between your kind of happiness (perfectly honest and suitable for you) and Arcura's (or mine) which is entirely different because IS NOT BASED ON THE MATERIAL THINGS OF THIS WORLD.

You may, of course, claim that we are daydreamers. And I am even willing to accept that possibility... But boy! I can assure you it is SOME daydreaming..! :):):)

[NeedKarma]

This is the difference between your kind of happiness (perfectly honest and suitable for you) and Arcura's (or mine) which is entirely different because IS NOT BASED ON THE MATERIAL THINGS OF THIS WORLD.

No it's not different because my happiness is absolutely not based on material things. How or why would you infer such a thing?

Also please show yelling at me with the all caps. Thanks.

[lawrence23]

Deep God related euphoria and drug related highs both stimulate the same part of the brain scientists have shown... we all have to get off on something... your God related endomorphine release capabilities are obviously working but Christian based philosophy has still enslaved mankind to be wage slaves and remains the largest causer of wars in the last 2000 years.
The universe and the world are amazing... just God didn't do it.

[gromitt82]

No it's not different because my happiness is absolutely not based on material things. How or why would you infer such a thing?

Also please show yelling at me with the all caps. Thanks.

Very simple! I’m conjecturing that your happiness is based on material things, because you have told us that you do not believe in supernatural things.
I do not use the term “material” in any derogatory way; but I suppose you mean that your happiness is based on your love to your wife, to your sons, to your family and friends. This type of happiness that I also share like most normal people. You may also feel happy when you walk in the fields and see the beauty that Mother Nature displays before your eyes. I do too! Most sensible people do… But all this happiness is a material happiness for it refers to down-to-earth subjects.
But when you die all this, including your loving ones, will cease to mean a thing to your body… unless you may tell me that you believe you have an immortal soul, in which case you must believe in SOMETHING ELSE, whatever it is!
And if this is so, we may find some coincidental points in our mutual philosophy of life! :eek:
Is that the cap you mean?

[gromitt82]

Deep God related euphoria and drug related highs both stimulate the same part of the brain scientists have shown....we all have to get off on something...your God related endomorphine release capabilities are obviously working but Christian based philosophy has still enslaved mankind to be wage slaves and remains the largest causer of wars in the last 2000 years.
The universe and the world are amazing...just God didnt do it.

WHATEVER YOU SAY, MY DEAR SCIENTIST, WHATEVER YOU SAY!!!:rolleyes:

[NeedKarma]

I do not use the term “material” in any derogatory way; but I suppose you mean that your happiness is based on your love to your wife, to your sons, to your family and friends. This type of happiness that I also share like most normal people. You may also feel happy when you walk in the fields and see the beauty that Mother Nature displays before your eyes. I do too! Most sensible people do…

Yes that's what I mean.

But all this happiness is a material happiness for it refers to down-to-earth subjects.

Sorry mate, that makes no sense.You can't start inventing new definitions for words to suit your argument. Yes, I'm all about down-to-earth subjects.

But when you die all this, including your loving ones, will cease to mean a thing to your body… unless you may tell me that you believe you have an immortal soul, in which case you must believe in SOMETHING ELSE, whatever it is!

Nope, no immortal soul.

Is that the cap you mean?

Yea but why do you feel the need to bold everything now?:confused:

[michealb]

Say for just a moment that religious people are happier than atheists. It's not true but for a moment I'll play along. I'd still rather be an atheist. Why? You might ask. Simple because my happiness is real. What's the difference you say. Let me give you an example say I could remove your brain and upload it to a computer that would fulfil your every desire. The only problem is that once I remove your brain you can't go back to your body. Would you do it? I wouldn't and I bet you wouldn't either. Why because it's not real. Fantasy happiness is not real happiness. The lesson is believing a fantasy to make yourself feel artificially happy isn't a lasting solution. Just as a child has to grow up and stop believing in Santa Clause the human race will also have to grow up and give up it's superstitions.