[DrJ]

Wasn't it you asking for OSE in the first place?

To be perfectly honest with you, I Don't KNOW Hitler existed. I honestly don't. 1,000,000,000 people could tell me that they saw him in person but that doesn't mean that I KNOW he existed.

That goes for the rest of your examples.

In the truest sense of the word, we, as humans, don't exactly KNOW anything!

We theorize... we conclude... we "prove"... we guess... to the extent that our limited vision of the world, as we know it, will allow us to.

Thus is the point.

And thus is the new extent of silliness that this argument has come to.

[sassyT]

Wasn't it you asking for OSE in the first place?

To be perfectly honest with you, I DONT KNOW Hitler existed. I honestly dont. 1,000,000,000 people could tell me that they saw him in person but that doesnt mean that I KNOW he existed.

That goes for the rest of your examples.

In the truest sense of the word, we, as humans, don't exactly KNOW anything!

We theorize... we conclude... we "prove"... we guess... to the extent that our limited vision of the world, as we know it, will allow us to.

Thus is the point.

And thus is the extent of silliness that this argument has come to.

Well, DrJ. You are right, I guess one can not even say they know Goerge Bush exists with certainty, Right?. lol That's why I said "as much as i know George Bush exists, is as much as I know God exists. "

[Credendovidis]

cred, You often use a generality that accuses all Christians of being un-christian-like. Please stop doing that.

Dear Fred,
Your statement is incorrect : I do not accuse all Christians of being un-christian-like.
I mention those who post un-christian-like statements.
There is even someone here who claims loudly to be a strict Christian, who invited me to carry out blaphemic actions. While you can not have missed that, I did not see you reacting to that at all.
How strange that you always find statements by me to complain about, while much worse statements by "christians" are never mentioned...
It's sad to see you so selective in your complaints.
Peace and kindness to you too,
John

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[arcura]

Back to the subject,
I believe that God Is amazing due to what is recorded that he has done and is capable of plus what I have seen and witnessed in this world.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Credendovidis]

Back to the subject, I believe that God Is amazing due to what is recorded that he has done and is capable of plus what I have seen and witnessed in this world.

Yes Fred. I realize that you believe that, and I respect what you believe.
That was never my point.
I question IF "God" is indeed amazing, or that that is just what you and many others believe.
Is all that was recorded ever OSE verified ? Is all that you have seen and witnessed at any time OSE proved?
I don't think so.
Peace and kindness to you too, Fred !

:)

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[arcura]

Credendovidis,
There is no need for OSE for me to Know what which I personally know through my Christan faith which is far more than just belief.
I hope and pray that some day soon you will have the joy and blessings of being a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Credendovidis]

There is no need for OSE for me to Know what which I personally know through my Christan faith which is far more than just belief.
I hope and pray that some day soon you will have the joy and blessings of being a Christian.

For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.

As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.

Have a nice day, Fred.

:)

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[gromitt82]

For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.

As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.

Have a nice day, Fred.

:)

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While I respect very much your point of view - which I think is typical of today's materialism that overwhelms us - I would like to point out that the joy and blessings that I'm looking forward - and I'm sure Arcura also does - are NOT to be considered of this world, but of the other Kingdom we both believe in. The problem is that all the happiness and riches one may enjoy in this life (which is so short) must be LEFT BEHIND when we GO. This is a very sad fact that nobody can deny, unless one may be looking forward to something infinitely better in the BEYOND!
Those mythical and religious wild claims may, after all, BE TRUE.
ACTUALLY, THEY ARE TRUE FOR MILLIONS OF US...
But, if we are wrong after all, what have we lost in this life? We have lived a full and peaceful life as you probably have. We have equally been as happy as many and have also been as unhappy at times as anybody else... On the other hand, if we turn out, as we strongly believe, to be right and you are wrong, our prize will be inmense. What will be yours?

[Credendovidis]

...The problem is that all the happiness and riches one may enjoy in this life (which is so short) must be LEFT BEHIND when we GO.

Yes of course. When you die you have no further need for anything material.
But where is the OSE that the promissed "hereafter" is nothing but a mythical claim??

Those mythical and religious wild claims may, after all, BE TRUE

The chances are much higher that they are not true. Pascals Wager has been proved invalid a long time ago !

But, if we are wrong after all, what have we lost in this life? We have lived a full and peaceful life as you probably have. We have equally been as happy as many and have also been as unhappy at times as anybody else...

I doubt that. All I see is religious hatred and intolerance.
Many religious people have lived an almost entire life under the threat of eternal damnation.

On the other hand, if we turn out, as we strongly believe, to be right and you are wrong, our prize will be inmense. What will be yours?

Again : Pascals Wager has been proved invalid a long time ago !

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :rolleyes: :D

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[arcura]

Credendovidis
It is sad the you are stuck in a world where OSE s are the only thing of importance.
In the world of spirituality OSE is useless for no way can they prove that there is no God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Unknown008]

Cred, do you need OSE for everything? I'm now wondering...

[arcura]

Unknown008 ,
Cred is stuck on that.
He ignores logic when it comes to the reality Of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Cred, do you need OSE for everything? I'm now wondering...

"No human being should learn from another. Each individual should develop his own powers to the uttermost, not try to imitate those of someone else."

"Never, never, never, ever give up." Winston Churchill

"I want that people would come even if there is no road at all." David Livingstone

While I do agree on Churchill's and Livingstone's quotes I cannot accept the first one. We are AALWAYS learning from others' experiences. We start learning from others when we go to the kindergarden and we go on through schools and colleges. Then at work and in our carrier when we avail ourselves of the experiences of those that came before us.
Other than that, what has the said quote with the subject matter being debated here?

[michealb]

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

That is the way it works for everything but your religion. You don't believe the toothfairy because there is no OSE but god you believe because...

Acura I think you have it backward though religious people ignore logic and reason when it come to god. I think Cred and I would be perfectly open to the idea that there is a god as long as there was some evidence. Even if it was some personal evidence that I couldn't reproduce for you. Frankly there is more evidence for big foot than there is for an all powerful god that watches over us and I don't believe in bigfoot either.

Also the more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence must be.

[gromitt82]

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

That is the way it works for everything but your religion. You don't believe the toothfairy because there is no OSE but god you believe because....

Acura I think you have it backward though religious people ignore logic and reason when it come to god. I think Cred and I would be perfectly open to the idea that there is a god as long as there was some evidence. Even if it was some personal evidence that I couldn't reproduce for you. Frankly there is more evidence for big foot than there is for an all powerful god that watches over us and I don't believe in bigfoot either.

Also the more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence must be.

As you obviously DO NOT consider our fascinating Universe Evidence enough, I think it is quite pointless to follow the debate. You are entitled to your own opinion as Arcura or I are entitled to ours. In other words, I DO NOT uqestion your right to think as you please and/or believe what you want BUT WE (I) expect you to do the same as far as we (I) are concerned.

[arcura]

Michaelb,
I challenge you and every atheist to read Mere Christianity ny C.S. Lewis with an open mind that admits that there just MIGHT be a God.
Lewis was an atheist who believed a lot in and on logic.
His logic is in that book.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

I'm not as optimistic as Arcura about the profit you can get out of your reading the book he recommends by C.S.Lewis. You can always look into the Wikipedia under "Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis" to get some addirtional info on this wonderful book.

But the reason as to why I'm not so optimistic is because I believe that NO OE IS BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE.

Let me inject one short article by Alexander Green:

Quote:

Last April in Washington D.C., a young man in blue jeans and a T-shirt emerged from the metro and positioned himself against a wall beside a trash basket.

He removed a violin from a small case, threw in a few dollars and pocket change as seed money, and began to play.

Over the next 45 minutes, more than 1,000 people passed by. Six minutes elapsed before anyone stopped to listen. A crowd never gathered. In fact, only seven people stopped to listen for a minute or more. When he was finished, the young man collected the few extra dollars from his violin case and left.

What's so unusual about this? Nothing, apparently.

However, the violinist was no ordinary street performer. It was Joshua Bell, one of the finest classical musicians in the world, playing some of the most elegant music ever written, on one of the most valuable violins ever created, a $3.5 million Stradivarius made in the 1710s.

He was participating in an experiment on "perception and priorities" arranged by The Washington Post.

Three days before, Bell had sold out Boston's Symphony Hall, where the cheap seats went for $100 apiece. Two weeks later, he played to a standing-room-only audience at the Music Center at Strathmore, in North Bethesda.

Just how good is Joshua Bell? One prominent music magazine says his playing "does nothing less than tell human beings why they bother to live."

Despite his genius, not 1% of more than 1,000 passers-by stopped to listen for even one minute.

Some folks, of course, will attribute this to the general public's abysmal taste in music. But I think something more was going on here. And it has nothing to do with musical tastes or even the hectic pace of modern life.

After all, Helen Keller noticed much the same thing more than 70 years ago - and she was deaf and blind. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly in 1933, she said,

"Recently I was visited by a very good friend who had just returned from a long walk in the woods, and I asked her what she had observed. 'Nothing in particular,' she replied. I might have been incredulous had I not been accustomed to such responses, for long ago I became convinced that the seeing see little.

"How was it possible, I asked myself, to walk for an hour through the woods and see nothing of note? I who cannot see find hundreds of things to interest me through mere touch. I feel the delicate symmetry of a leaf. I pass my hands lovingly about the smooth skin of a birch, or the rough, shaggy, bark of a pine. In spring I touch the branches of trees hopefully in search of a bud... I feel the delightful, velvety texture of a flower... I am delighted to have the cool waters of a brook rush through my open fingers. To me a lush carpet of pine needles or spongy grass is more welcome than the most luxurious Persian rug.

"If I can get so much pleasure from mere touch, how much more beauty must be revealed by sight. Yet, those who have eyes apparently see little. The panorama of color and action which fills the world is taken for granted. It is human, perhaps, to appreciate little that which we have and to long for that which we have not, but it is a great pity that in the world of light the gift of sight is used only as a mere convenience rather than a means of adding fullness to life."

I won't comment further on these two stories. They speak volumes by themselves.

However, I will add one brief quote from John Horgan, author of "Rational Mysticsm":

"The best spiritual advice is the simplest: Pay attention. See! Or rather, cherish. Cherish what you have before it's gone."

[NeedKarma]

NO OE IS BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE.

Actually the quote is: "None are so blind as those who will not see." And it kind of works both ways here.

[gromitt82]

Actually the quote is: "None are so blind as those who will not see." And it kind of works both ways here.

Actually this seems to be an old proverb attributed to the Englishman, John Heywood, in 1546 -- and used by Jonathan Swift in 1738, and in America by Thomas Chalkey in 1713, which says, "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."

But, other than that, and while I agree it does work both ways here, let me just say that figures tend to show that we might be right.

According to a 2005 survey published in Encyclopædia Britannica they find that the non-religious make up about 11.9% of the world's population, and atheists about 2.3%. So we should conclude that those who believe in some sort of god may add to some 5.700 billion people against some 150 million who simply DO NOT believe in anything except in themselves.
Now, of the above 5.700 billion some 2.000 billion (approx. 35%) happen to be Chritians, i.e. close to 14 times more than atheists.
Chances are, therefore, that the above proverb may rather be applied to the lesser number (the exception) than to the majority. At least in sheer logic!

[NeedKarma]

Sorry, I don't follow something simply because it's popular. And yes, I do believe in myself... and my family, and my friends, and that the sun will come up tomorrow, and that I like cinnamon buns, I believe in a lot of things, just not in a god that I should worship.