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MikePhila · Jun 4, 2008, 09:06 AM

I am in need of some expert advice, which will be greatly appreciated. We just purchased a house that is approximately 60 years old. The first project was to replace an old toilet in the third floor bathroom. After removing the old toilet, I encountered a situation I did not expect.

The closet bend is lead, which appears to have been flared over a brass closet flange. The flange is not secured to the subfloor. The floor is mosaic tile laid over wood subfloor. The flange rests on top of the tile, with the “lip” of the closet bend flare over the top of the flange. It appears that the lead closet bend was flared over the flange enough so that the wax ring completely sealed to the lip of the lead bend, and there is no evidence that the connection ever leaked. After removing the original closet bolts from the flange, I can rotate the flange around the lead bend, but cannot get the flange off the pipe without prying up the flared edges of the closet bend (which I have not tried and I’m not sure is even possible without damaging the lead bend). I was able to place new closet bolts into the existing flange.

The original toilet was secured with 4 closet bolts. The two rear bolts were placed through the brass flange, while the two front bolts were screwed into the subfloor. Of course, the new toilet only has holes for securing to the flange, so I used a hacksaw to cut of the front bolts screwed into the floor.

I am concerned that attaching the new toilet to the closet bolts in the unsecured flange might create too much stress on the flared lip lead closet bend, which appears to be rather pliable.

Is the lead bend flared over the brass flange sturdy enough to support the toilet, or should I attempt to bend the flared lip up enough to screw the flange to the subfloor (screw holes in the flange are currently covered by the lip of the bend)? If I screw the flange to the subfloor, are wood screws sufficient? How concerned should I be with breaking the lead bend if I gently pry the edge up to access the screw holes in the flange? Would an easier course of action just be to drill out the flange and install two new closet screws directly into the subfloor?

Thanks for any help.

EPMiller · Jun 4, 2008, 07:29 PM

If I understand you correctly, you probably can reuse this old drain setup. I would secure that brass flange to the floor. Brass or bronze screws would be my choice with stainless steel a distant second. Anything else will destroy either the flange or the screw through galvanic action. I can't remember if stainless will destroy the brass flange or vice versa. If you can tell where the mounting screw holes are, just gently pry a section of the edge of the lead up enough to predrill and put the screws in. Probably will take 4. GENTLY tap the lead down again. Hopefully it isn't too brittle to rework this once. You could also drill through the lead for the screws You could also use the type of johnny bolts that have a lag thread to fasten to the wood floor, that way there wouldn't be stress on the flange. I prefer these as last resort however. Maybe you could post a picture to give a better idea of what you have.

MikePhila · Jun 5, 2008, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by EPMiller

If I understand you correctly, you probably can reuse this old drain setup. I would secure that brass flange to the floor. Brass or bronze screws would be my choice with stainless steel a distant second. Anything else will destroy either the flange or the screw through galvanic action. I can't remember if stainless will destroy the brass flange or vice versa. If you can tell where the mounting screw holes are, just gently pry a section of the edge of the lead up enough to predrill and put the screws in. Probably will take 4. GENTLY tap the lead down again. Hopefully it isn't too brittle to rework this once. You could also drill through the lead for the screws You could also use the type of johnny bolts that have a lag thread to fasten to the wood floor, that way there wouldn't be stress on the flange. I prefer these as last resort however. Maybe you could post a picture to give a better idea of what you have.

Thank you. I figured the setup would be okay with the flange secured to the floor. I will give it a try.

speedball1 · Jun 5, 2008, 04:56 AM

I am a old timey plunber. Back in the old days we didn't use flanges and when we did they set on top of a lead flare and not under it. We used plumbers putty for a seal and wood screw closet bolts to secure the bowl to the floor. If you use the brass flange it sets on top of the lead flare and is screwed to the floor. Good luck, Tom