[KingsX]

My house was built in 1921. Along the main floor and basement there is knob and tube wiring that goes to most of the outlets and lighting. At the panel, there is two 30 amp fuses set in, individually, what looks like a porcelain "box" or something. Pretty old system. Also at the panel, is another box with four more fuses in it and a little black box with handle that looks like you can pull it out or something. I'm not sure. I have two meters also and it looks like the second fuse box has one meter, and the first two 30 amp fuses has the other. This second panel has two 15 amp fuses and two 25 amp fuses and whatever that little black box thingy is. Connected to this panel is some other outlets in the house. Two in the kitchen, the oven I think, another outlet in the basement and one in the garage.

My basement is unfinished, but I'm going to finish it this winter. I want to install baseboard heaters, because there is no heat down there. My main floor is gas fired hot water radiators. I have some questions.

First, I'm not sure what my service is? 60 amp, 100 amp?
I want to change it all over to a breaker panel, and whether it is worth it or not and how cheap and easy would it be?
I would like to install basically 5500 watts at 240 volts for the basement, so about two 20 amp 240 circuits (fuses?), as it is about 700 square feet and doesn't need to be "toasty".
Do I even have the capability to install these heaters in the first place? Will I have to upgrade my service AND panel? There is no spot for more fuses either way.

I hope the background info can help and I hope I'm making sense. Thanks everyone for your answers!

[tkrussell]

My answers are in bold.

First, I'm not sure what my service is? 60 amp, 100 amp?

No way for us to know for sure. You need to find the Main fuses and read the rating listed on the label. The panel or fusehholder will also be rated.


I want to change it all over to a breaker panel, and whether it is worth it or not and how cheap and easy would it be?

I suspect you do not have a choice but to upgrade to either a 100 or 200 amp service.

Cheap? What is your perception of cheap? A service change, depending on where your located and the types of materials used will dictate cost, anywheres from $1000 - $2000, as a range. If the existing service is old and obsolete, changing it will only add to your safety and capitol value of the home.

Easy? Depends on your knowledge, abilities, and tools you have. Some people may think electrical work is easy, while those who have actually done it may differ in that opinion. Every thing that is done must be done in a certain fashion so as to comply with code, standard installation practices,and safety.


I would like to install basically 5500 watts at 240 volts for the basement, so about two 20 amp 240 circuits (fuses?), as it is about 700 square feet and doesn't need to be "toasty".

This can be done with either 2- 20 amp 240 volt circuits with all #12 wire, or one 30 amp 240 volt circuit with all #10 wire.


Do I even have the capability to install these heaters in the first place? Will I have to upgrade my service AND panel? There is no spot for more fuses either way.

Pictures of your panel and service would help us determine better, but judging from your description, I suspect the entire service and panel needs to be changed.

[KingsX]

I checked the main fuse and it is 60 amp. I was mistaken by the two 30 amp fuses running the knob and tube, there is one 30 amp fuse and one 25 amp fuse. Maybe they are supposed to be both 30, I'm not sure. This house has probably had a ton of people living in it.

Where is the best place to post pictures? Can I right here on the board? I just want to make sure so I don't use up bandwidth or break board rules or something. Once I know, I'll post some pictures right away. Thanks again.

[tkrussell]

Click on Answer this Question, or Advanced below the quick answer window. In the tool bar use the paperclip to attach a variety of file types, each with their own limitations.

I can tell you those 30 and 25 amp screw in fuses probably need to be 15 amp fuses, as I am sure the wiring is all #14.

[KingsX]

Well I'm not sure about the 15 amp fuses in place of the 25 and 30 because the house is wired with knob and tube, and I don't know what gauge that wire would be. The entire house is wired this way except for a few things on the other fuse box. If they were only 15 amp fuses, I'd be blowing fuses left and right because every light fixture AND outlet on the main floor (except for two in the kitchen and stove etc) are on those two circuits. So I'm not sure what the deal was with knob and tube.

Also, I've attached 5 photos of my panel area. It goes right to left and you can see the main fuse box, and then two pipes coming out. One goes straight to two little boxes, which then go the meter and the two fuses we spoke about. The second pipe goes all the way across to the second meter and the second fuse box. Inside the fuse box, you'll see four fuses and another fuse, kind of big with a little handle. Maybe the stove's fuse?

So there you go. I suppose I'll need to upgrade my panel in order to run some basement baseboard heat. With 60 amps, I suppose I'll have to upgrade my service as well?

[KingsX]

Well for some reason the fifth picture won't upload. I've tried a couple of different file names and sizes, but to no avail. I'll try to upload it later, because it shows the actual fuses in that panel.

[tkrussell]

Did Thomas Edison install this himself?

This is a very old service, and the entire service needs to be upgraded.

Using fuses larger than the rating of the wire size may keep fuses from blowing, you are also overheating the wires and taking a huge chance of burning the building down.

I know, this has lasted 80 years, I guess you have been lucky.

[Cobraguy]

One thing about it, everything is right there and accessible. It shouldn't be too difficult to upgrade the service other than new feeder cables for the upgraded service. You can get a new 200A panel that is integrated with the meter and will make a very clean installation for you. You will be very happy and secure with your new set up. Now, about all that knob and tube wiring that needs to be upgraded...

[KingsX]

Well I know this is old. But it is the only system that would have been built when the house was built in 1921. And the service is 60 amps. So wouldn't the knob and tube system be able to handle the original service provided to the house? Otherwise, it would have been 40 amps or less or who knows.

So either way I don't have the ability to have the basement baseboards put on this panel, I'd have to upgrade to a breaker panel I assume. I do have a questions. I have an electric stove/oven. Could I upgrade that to a gas oven, and use the 220 that is left over from the oven to provide the power and amps needed for my baseboard heaters?

In regards to the knob and tube, I think I'm going to slowly upgrade my electricity in the house. But I don't want to take all my walls down, so I'm going to find out what code is, and just remove strips of the plaster and lattes (that's right) along a stud and run my wire into the attic or basement space and rough it in for the new panel. I assume that'll work?

[tkrussell]

Well I know this is old. But it is the only system that would have been built when the house was built in 1921. And the service is 60 amps. So wouldn't the knob and tube system be able to handle the original service provided to the house? Otherwise, it would have been 40 amps or less or who knows.

It more is can the K&T wire handle the amount of devices and appliances, keeping the overcurrent protection at a max of 15 amps.

So either way I don't have the ability to have the basement baseboards put on this panel, I'd have to upgrade to a breaker panel I assume. I do have a questions. I have an electric stove/oven. Could I upgrade that to a gas oven, and use the 220 that is left over from the oven to provide the power and amps needed for my baseboard heaters?

As it stands now , no heaters can be added. Yes I hate to admit it, but not using the range does free up some capacity. But keep in mind, a range never runs as often as electric heat, so not knowing the other loads, I am only guessing that this will work safely.

If you do connect the heat, at least have the system thoroughly checked for loose connections and damage in progress.

In regards to the knob and tube, I think I'm going to slowly upgrade my electricity in the house. But I don't want to take all my walls down, so I'm going to find out what code is, and just remove strips of the plaster and lattes (that's right) along a stud and run my wire into the attic or basement space and rough it in for the new panel. I assume that'll work?

You know the drill, no pun intended, find the path of least resistance to get cables from point to point. Older homes sometimes can be easy to fish wires, and most times can be a real challenge due to nonstandard methods and strong lumber, and fragile finishes.

Best thing you said was "check code". Always good as each area can have changes and waivers for certain codes.

Oh, and seems I was pretty close on the age.

[KingsX]

I know there is differences between the US and Canada (I'm in Canada) but its generally the same. In regards to fishing wires, doesn't the wire have to be stapled to the studs? I installed the electricity in part of the finished basement and I followed code and ran proper distances from the floor etc, per outlet etc, but I had to staple to the studs to follow code I think. So I could cut out a chunk in the wall down to the floor and staple the wire to the stud, and bring it into the basement joists.And I don't know if I can run the wire into the basement joists and back up to another outlet on the same circuit and so on. But if I want to run a light fixture on the same circuit, I'll have to cut the wall out for the entire stretch of the stud all the way into the attic right?

If that was the case what I'd do would be to put all the light fixtures on their own circuits that way I only have to cut down to the switches, and then fish the wire down into the basement, but I assume I'll have to staple to the stud still for each light fixture cable run.

I know a decent amount about electricity, but obviously not enough. Thanks again for all your help as I know this got a little off topic from the basement heaters. But it looks like I have to fix one to do the other...

[peter030205]

For old work you don't need to secure the cable inside finished walls with staples. You can use internal cable clamps in the device boxes to secure the cable. However, where the framing is accessible you'll need to secure the NM cable with the appropriate staples.

[KingsX]

Okay, so I would have to use bushings (or whatever they are called) in the boxes etc to secure the wire. But I would't have to staple to the studs unless there was access? So the basement joists, which are accessible I have to staple. I would anyway.

Lets say I have a 16 foot wall on the main floor. And I want to install two electrical boxes on each end more or less. Should I fish the wire to the basement joists from one box, and run the wire along the joists under the wall and up to the second box, so on and so forth and complete the circuit to the panel? Or, whould I fish the wire down into the joists for each box and go to a junction box and then complete the circuit from there?

[peter030205]

King, either way would work. You can go from outlet to outlet, or from a centralized junction box... I'd say choose the method that uses the least amount of cable.

[KingsX]

Okay, thanks. Another question, I have 6 light fixtures throughout the entire house. One in each bedroom, so two there, one in the hallway one in the kitchen, one in the front entrance and one in the bathroom. Can I run the wire from each 6 of these independent circuits down the same wall cavity? Or would there be a heat issue or code violation? Thanks again.

[Stratmando]

You can run them all together, don't allow closer than 1 1/4" from edge of stud, to avoid screws from peircing or protect with steel plates. If you can wire receptacle to receptacle , instead of junction, it will eleminate connections and may allow easier troubleshooting in the future. All work can be done from upstairs.

[KingsX]

Okay that sounds great. I thought I'd have to open up walls like crazy in order to staple to studs. Of course I should check my local code to be sure either way. I know here in Canada we have slightly different codes.

In regards to what tkrussel was saying about the K&T being at 25 and 30 amps, and probably should have been at 15 amps for each fuse. I forgot that each the outlets are only two poles, but they are 20 amp outlets. And they are original. So maybe the fuses should be 20 amp fuses? But was it different back during the 1920's? I don't know.

[tkrussell]

If the wire is #12, then 20 amp fuse is fine, otherwise, if #14, then 15 amp fuse is the max.

[KingsX]

How can you tell with the old K&T which gauge it is? Its all this black round wire?

[tkrussell]

Get yourself one of those wire strippers that have a hole for each size wire, use it as a wire gauge to measure the copper wire, not the insulation.