[aleles]

Hi, I wanted to clarify if there is a documented regulation (in Ohio) about the legality of making a left turn crossing over a pair of angled double yellow lines with a dividing section between them marked with diagonal yellow lines?

Here's a Google map screenshot of the maneuver http://s11.postimg.org/50s8sgowj/Capture.jpg

Thanks!

[smoothy]

That looks like a NO left turn area... that other street isn't even angled in such a way to allow a left hand turn.

If you got a ticket making that left... you are going to lose trying to fight it.

Thanks for linking a picture.....that makes all the difference.

[aleles]

Thanks smoothy. I actually was standing at that entrance making a right turn into the parking lot. I missed the turn slightly and wanted to back up. I looked behind, didn't see any cars and started backing when another car did the maneuver shown on the image that I didn't expect, so I hit it. My insurance told me that whoever is backing up is at full fault regardless of the circumstances and the other party's left turn is legal.

[smoothy]

Exactly, backing up on the road or shoulder is a significant safety offense. At least it in in VA where it can carry 6 points on your record, (on par with reckless driving and passing a schoolbus with flashing red lights).

Cop should have ticketed them for that turn....and you for backing up on a roadway. But a lot of that is moot since you did get charged at fault as you were the one that hit their vehicle. And you committed the more serious offence.

Some other states might have split the responsibility somewhat depending on the conclusions of the investigating officers.

[aleles]

Thanks!

[ebaines]

Not sure about Ohio, but in most states (maybe all?) it is OK to turn left across double yellow lines into a residence, private road or alley, unless otherwise marked. The double yellow is to signifiy no passing or driving on the other side of the line, and when they paint the road they don't put a break at every private driveway or buisness. Of course proper turn signals are required. So I agree with the insurance company - the accident is the OP's fault.

[ebaines]

Follow up to my previous post: this passage from Ohio Code section 4511.25 allows left turns over lane markers:

(C) Upon any roadway having four or more lanes for moving traffic and providing for two-way movement of traffic, no vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven to the left of the center line of the roadway, except when authorized by official traffic control devices designating certain lanes to the left of the center of the roadway for use by traffic not otherwise permitted to use the lanes, or except as permitted under division (A)(2) of this section.

This division shall not be construed as prohibiting the crossing of the center line in making a left turn into or from an alley, private road, or driveway.

[smoothy]

But a key thing here as well... is take a look at how that other road curves around for traffic on the other direction to turn without stopping.


Its not 90 degrees to the other road, and someone turning left would have to make significantly sharper turn than a 90 degree turn to enter it.

That is the access for the oncoming lane....and having seen intersections like this....the left turn onto that road would have happened about a hundred yeards to the left of the picture. Thats an onramp for the road at the top that meets of crossed this other road at approximately a 45 degree angle....and likely has a traffic light or stop sign depending on how large it is.

THe person traveling the red arrow route missed their turn...and was making an improper turn rather than making a legal U turn further ahead and coming back. I bet they did that to avoid a line of ares with a red left turn arrow. I see impatient people trying that here in DC every day at a somewhat similar intersection.

That turn was for the OP who also made an illegal mistake by trying to back up as he just missed his turn as well.

Was I correct at guessing the larger layout of that intersection?

[aleles]

Thanks guys!

@smoothy
You were exactly right, there is an entrance to that parking lot to the left of that picture. Here's the location https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4850064,-81.7016423,86m/data=!3m1!1e3

@ebaines
Good point. I'm also seeing this paragraph http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.35

4511.35 Divided roadways.
(A) Whenever any highway has been divided into two roadways by an intervening space, or by a physical barrier, or clearly indicated dividing section so constructed as to impede vehicular traffic, every vehicle shall be driven only upon the right-hand roadway, and no vehicle shall be driven over, across, or within any such dividing space, barrier, or section, except through an opening, crossover, or intersection established by public authority. This section does not prohibit the occupancy of such dividing space, barrier, or section for the purpose of an emergency stop or in compliance with an order of a police officer.

Does double yellow line with the diagonal lines in between classify as a "clearly indicated dividing section"?

[smoothy]

Thanks for that bigger shot.. thats very much like I envisioned it. You were both at fault there... those solid yellow lines with the yellow hashes are to be treated like a median strip would ... raised or grassy... only this one is a painted one. Being a DIVIDER between both directions of travel.

[aleles]

My Progressive rep said that the left turn is legal and when I asked her to prove that she got all angry and refused to answer. I wonder if I can get a written statement from a police officer or someone that the left turn is illegal. I called a police district and a municipal court, they are all useless and just point fingers at each other. Do you know if it's possible to get something legal in writing?

[smoothy]

Print that last photo out... take it and go to a police station... and ask them to write a statement as to its legality.

That's CLEARY a median area... and median strips like that are not left turn free for alls any place I have lived.

[smearcase]

In traffic engineering, the angle of those yellow lines (or white angled lines at gore areas where ramps leave a freeway for example ) are sloped in the direction that traffic is supposed to travel. Signs with the same logic are placed at the approach end of bridges,intended to direct traffic onto the bridge instead of over the slope. Seem like a no-brainer but useful to drivers in fog and to night time drivers unfamiliar with the highway.
In other words, those lines are angled from bottom right to top left [as viewed in the photo (http://s11.postimg.org/50s8sgowj/Capture.jpg)] and if they were angled bottom left to top right they would be incorrect as they would be directing vehicles into the opposing lane. The message intended is Keep Out, but I don't if those conditions are spelled out in traffic laws in Ohio, or anywhere else.
In gore areas where traffic (one on mainline, one on ramp) going same direction passes on both sides of the gore, lines shaped like a vee are used, not a caret. We have all seen drivers miss the throat of a ramp, and then cut through the gore improperly, causing a hazard which the direction of those lines in the gore are intended to once again give the Keep Out message.
As ebaines showed: "This division shall not be construed as prohibiting the crossing of the center line in making a left turn into or from an alley, private road, or driveway."
I believe the condition shown in the photo does not depict a simple center line, more like a gore area for a ramp (not to be entered) and the direction of the lines indicates that, as stated above. Both drivers may or may not have been at fault. But if there is no other regulation covering the condition than the one ebaines posted, the other driver might be able to get off on a technicality, if that is a privately owned, parking lot that aleles referred to.
But backing along a highway requires no interpretation of the finer points, it's Driving 101- a big no-no. The only instance I know of where it might be allowed, is backing out of non-commercial, residential driveway that has no turnaround option, but that person backing out of the drive way of course has to yield right of way to the vehicles on the roadway.

Edited to correct my vee and caret comment

[AK lawyer]

My Progressive rep said that the left turn is legal and when I asked her to prove that she got all angry and refused to answer. I wonder if I can get a written statement from a police officer or someone that the left turn is illegal. I called a police district and a municipal court, they are all useless and just point fingers at each other. Do you know if it's possible to get something legal in writing?

Section 4511.35 (which you previously quoted) does, in my opinion, prohibit the left turn by the other driver.

It is not the job of the police or of the courts to give you legal advice. For a court to do so would be what lawyers call an "advisory opinion", generally not done by courts. If you need a legal opinion, get it from an attorney.

[aleles]

@AK lawyer
I assume that if a police officer can write tickets for traffic violations, they should be able to confirm it on paper too. However, when I called a police station they said they can't give me a written notice I need. They said a municipal court decides on violations. When I called a municipal court they said no too. Should I just stop by a police station or I need an attorney to get something in writing?

[smoothy]

Odd... the police can't say if it's a violation... then how do they manage to write so many tickets if they don't know what's legal or not.

The court is there to decide if the cop made a mistake (which happens)... or circumstances warranted a violation. The court doesn't write the laws....they only interpret them.