[paraclete]

The point being science indicates the narrative about right wingers being scientific illiterates is false and meaningless.

speech, I don't think that question was addressed. What we know is that each side accentuates the scientific data that supports their cause or view. The non-conservatives believe that man taking action can reverse the harm that man has caused, the conservatives still need to be convinced that man has contributed significantly to what we observe as climate change. Whilst some of my views would be considered liberal in your world, I stand with those who say the science is not settled in the respect of the size of the conribution man has made, and certainly not settled as to what influence we can have on the outcome. I certainly don't believe that spending billions trying to abate the climate change effect is warranted but I don't object to the implementation of sustainable technologies

[NeedKarma]

P.S. The groupthink ...

You should register there and lay out your opinion to them.

[speechlesstx]

speech, I don't think that question was addressed. What we know is that each side accentuates the scientific data that supports their cause or view. The non-conservatives believe that man taking action can reverse the harm that man has caused, the conservatives still need to be convinced that man has contributed significantly to what we observe as climate change. Whilst some of my views would be considered liberal in your world, I stand with those who say the science is not settled in the respect of the size of the conribution man has made, and certainly not settled as to what influence we can have on the outcome. I certainly don't believe that spending billions trying to abate the climate change effect is warranted but I don't object to the implementation of sustainable technologies

It does address the perception manifested in the narrative.

[talaniman]

We haven't cleaned up the messes we know we made let alone the speculation of the future messes.

The idea of spending billions is greatly offset by the idea of MAKING billions.

[speechlesstx]

Ideas don't pay salaries. Obama's signature clean coal facility is a failure you know. Kind of like his solar investments.

[talaniman]

Got a link?

[tomder55]

How about a lefty site
Daily Kos: Failed clean coal projects cost Illinois taxpayers millions
Here's one in NY that's a failure
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...FREE/132542549
Here's one in Minnesota
Failed Minnesota clean-coal project gets help with its debts | Star Tribune
Here's one in Mississippi

For decades, the federal government has touted a bright future for nonpolluting power plants fueled by coal. But in this rural corner of eastern Mississippi, the reality of so-called clean coal isn't pretty.

Mississippi Power Co.'s Kemper County plant here, meant to showcase technology for generating clean electricity from low-quality coal, ranks as one of the most-expensive U.S. fossil-fuel projects ever—at .7 billion and rising. Mississippi Power's 186,000 customers, who live in one of the poorest regions of the country, are reeling at double-digit rate increases. And even Mississippi Power's parent, Atlanta-based Southern Co., has said Kemper shouldn't be used as a nationwide model.

Meanwhile, the plant hasn't generated a single kilowatt for customers, and it's anyone's guess how well the complex operation will work. The company this month said it would forfeit 3 million in federal tax credits because it won't finish the project by its May deadline.

One of just three clean-coal plants moving ahead in the U.S., Kemper has been such a calamity for Southern that the power industry and Wall Street analysts say other utilities aren't likely to take on similar projects, even though the federal government plans to offer financial incentives.

'Clean Coal' Costs Are on Display at Mississippi Plant - WSJ.com
Here's a doosey in Alaska

The General Accounting Office (GAO) studies documenting the waste and mismanagement within the CCTP have produced enough paper to fuel a power plant. Since 1984, this program has received more than .4 billion to fund research and development of experimental technologies that have not been proven to be any cleaner than traditional coal burning technologies.

The Healy Clean Coal Project, located 10 miles outside of Denali National Park in Alaska, is an example of one Clean Coal project gone bad. In the late 1980's, the project received 7 million in federal subsidies to build a new plant so that it could test a new kind of coal combustor that emits less pollution. After its completion, the plant went through two years of testing which finally deemed it unsafe and unreliable. The plant has been sitting idle since 1999, but still costs the state of Alaska million a year in debt service on bonds and maintenance on the generator.

To top it all off, Healy's older coal plant, located right next to the new one, now pollutes less than the Clean Coal Plant would - thanks to a retrofit on their conventional combustors. Not surprisingly, the new plant's only viable customer, the Golden Valley Electric Association, is no longer interested in leasing a plant that costs more to run and has no measurable benefits associated with this extra cost. In order to keep Golden Valley's business, the Healy Clean Coal Project's leaders are now asking the federal government to "lend" them 5 million so they can retrofit the "clean coal" plant with traditional technology.
The Healy Clean Coal Project is just one example of many Clean Coal projects that have wasted millions of taxpayer dollars. The GAO has documented an inexcusable amount of waste and mismanagement within this program, including six major Clean Coal projects that are running seriously behind schedule and two projects in bankruptcy.

Despite all the evidence that proves otherwise, the Department of Energy considers the Clean Coal program a success. They say that experiments like the Healy Clean Coal Project prove that it's possible to develop cleaner burning coal plants. However, stronger standards in the 1990 Clean Air Act have also led to cleaner burning coal plants, but they haven't cost taxpayers billions of dollars in research and development.

Clean Coal Program Should Be Canceled

[speechlesstx]

'Clean Coal' Costs Are on Display at Mississippi Plant - WSJ.com

For decades, the federal government has touted a bright future for nonpolluting power plants fueled by coal. But in this rural corner of eastern Mississippi, the reality of so-called clean coal isn’t pretty.Mississippi Power Co.’s Kemper County plant here, meant to showcase technology for generating clean electricity from low-quality coal, ranks as one of the most-expensive U.S. fossil-fuel projects ever—at .7 billion and rising.

Mississippi Power’s 186,000 customers, who live in one of the poorest regions of the country, are reeling at double-digit rate increases. And even Mississippi Power’s parent, Atlanta-based Southern Co., has said Kemper shouldn’t be used as a nationwide model.

Meanwhile, the plant hasn’t generated a single kilowatt for customers, and it’s anyone’s guess how well the complex operation will work. The company this month said it would forfeit 3 million in federal tax credits because it won’t finish the project by its May deadline.

One of just three clean-coal plants moving ahead in the U.S., Kemper has been such a calamity for Southern that the power industry and Wall Street analysts say other utilities aren’t likely to take on similar projects, even though the federal government plans to offer financial incentives.

[talaniman]

Kemper County energy facility - Home - Mississippi Power

Don't know why I am linking you to the financial statements because you will never connect the dots that lead you to why and how this multi billion dollar company invest little and gains a lot even with the law suits it has to fight over failure to meet regulatory standards.

Sorry the WSJ doesn't even hit the tip of the iceburg, nor identify the REAL issues of the energy companies.

HINT, study the share holder returns on the exchange. Let me know what you find. Then we can talk about Texas. Take off that TParty hat and do the homework.

[Tuttyd]

Just to revert back to the topic for a moment.

I just realized that you actually have some highly qualified scientists that are 'flat earthers'. It is amazing but true.

[paraclete]

Just to revert back to the topic for a moment.

I just realized that you actually have some highly qualified scientists that are 'flat earthers'. It is amazing but true.

Tutt the more "brains" they have the more they becomed dilluded into believing their own importance. They reach a point where they cannot see the flaw in their arguments and rage against an establishment that will not support them

[tomder55]

Just to revert back to the topic for a moment.

I just realized that you actually have some highly qualified scientists that are 'flat earthers'. It is amazing but true.

Names ?Seems to me the flat earthers are the ones that insist "consensus science ' is gospel truth.

[speechlesstx]

Kemper County energy facility - Home - Mississippi Power

Don't know why I am linking you to the financial statements because you will never connect the dots that lead you to why and how this multi billion dollar company invest little and gains a lot even with the law suits it has to fight over failure to meet regulatory standards.

Sorry the WSJ doesn't even hit the tip of the iceburg, nor identify the REAL issues of the energy companies.

HINT, study the share holder returns on the exchange. Let me know what you find. Then we can talk about Texas. Take off that TParty hat and do the homework.

Since you libs are smarter than the rest of us, including WSJ and the energy companies, by all means enlighten us.

[speechlesstx]

Names ?Seems to me the flat earthers are the ones that insist "consensus science ' is gospel truth.

Ironic, isn't it? Like I said, the first clue is the instant demonization of anyone who goes against the groupthink.

[paraclete]

Since you libs are smarter than the rest of us, including WSJ and the energy companies, by all means enlighten us.

It is strange, speech, we have spent countless hours discussing these concepts with you and yet you call upon us to enlighten you, as if our words have fallen upon deaf ears.

[Tuttyd]

Names ?Seems to me the flat earthers are the ones that insist "consensus science ' is gospel truth.

Seems as though science doesn't play a major role in this. Apparently other factors such as religion, political beliefs and cultural factors are more important.

Probably should have added for about half of the population.

[paraclete]

Seems as though science doesn't play a major role in this. Apparently other factors such as religion, political beliefs and cultural factors are more important.

Well of course goes without saying other forces are in play here, they give lip service to science just as they do to religion and politics well they are fellow travellers

[talaniman]

Lets not leave out the profit motive, which I think is the most powerful incentive for what's regarded as scientific fact.

[cdad]

Lets not leave out the profit motive, which I think is the most powerful incentive for what's regarded as scientific fact.

Right now the ones who stand to profit the most is the Chinese. That is the problem with the so called "green" energy business. Its more like "grey" energy. Even in the business they reguard hydro as less then green yet it is a proven technology. I support investigating new ways for energy but the way it is currently driven it is just a huge sink hole to dump money into. We need to stop the bleeding and come to consensus as to which direction to go and stop with throwing darts blindfolded and hope something sticks.

[talaniman]

The Chinese have been EXCELLENT under cutting global competition, and boosting there own green products the last 10 years. Heavily subsidized though. How can they lose skewing the market price wise in their favor?