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De Maria · Jul 24, 2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

No problem. I just hope that you also realize that no denomination has existed for 2000 years.

I agree that the Catholic Church is not a denomination. But yes, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria · Jul 24, 2008, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

First, denominations do not exist in scripture, therefore no denominations,

I agree. Jesus only established one Church. Denominations came about when people broke away from that one Church.

including yours were in existence in the first century or established by Jesus.

I disagree. I believe the Catholic Church is the one established by Jesus Christ. I can see Her Teachings in Scripture and I can trace Her historically back to the time of Christ.

Like most errors, taking a verse out of context can be seen by reading the context. Read the passage of scripture just before that verse to see what Jesus said that He would build his church upon. But this topic is a distraction because we agreed that Jesus did not establish a denomination, so let's consider what it was that He did establish.

Advice I give you whole heartedly. Especially in searching for Sola Scriptura in Scripture. You will find, if you do so, that Scripture alone contradicts Scripture.

Will you take the challenge? Please provide the Scriptures that you believe attest to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

As I indicated previously, my Bible indicates that He established the body of believers - do you agree?

Yes. He established His Church and He called it Church. And He gave His Church the mandate to be make disciples of the world, in other words, to be Catholic.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria · Jul 24, 2008, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.

Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?

Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?

Has anyone answered the question yet? If so, I missed it.

What I want to know is why nonCatholics say we should neglect the Church when Scripture obviously puts great import on the Church?

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u · Jul 24, 2008, 08:26 PM

ANSWER: who says listen to scripture alone?
I have not heard anybody say listen to scripture alone yet.
Where do you get that anybody is saying listen to scripture alone?

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 08:38 PM

De Maria, You are correct.
And if one reads Scripture carefully and correctly one sees that Jesus was addressing Peter directly and speaking of him when he said to Peter, You are rock and on this rock I will build My Church.
Also tie that with Jesus speaking in the parable about building a house on a rock and not sand which is tiny pebbles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

De Maria · Jul 24, 2008, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

ANSWER: who says listen to scripture alone?
I have not heard anybody say listen to scripture alone yet.
Where do you get that anybody is saying listen to scripture alone?

Its been a while since I started this thread, but I believe I started it in response to someone on this forum saying just that.

In addition, I think TJ does. And even if TJ doesn't, there is a long tradition of people in the reformed traditions who claim that Scripture alone is the rule of faith. Therefore, they don't believe that the Church is infallible nor that the Church has authority over man.

Are you saying that you don't believe in Scripture alone?

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u · Jul 24, 2008, 08:48 PM

I believe that Church teachings should be backed by scripture but then you have different denominations that say THEY are the only ones that interpret it right.

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 08:55 PM

N0help4u,
Tj is but one of many who believe in the heresy of scripture alone called Sola Scriptora.
These passages also demonstrate that Scipture alone is NOT a biblical teaching.
NO WHERE in the bible is a statement that "scripture alone" is to be believed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

De Maria · Jul 24, 2008, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I believe that Church teachings should be backed by scripture

That is correct. In fact, Church teachings are essentially interpretation of Scripture.

but then you have different denominations that say THEY are the only ones that interpret it right.

Including the Catholic Church. And one of them is correct because Scripture says that the Church of Christ is the Pillar of Truth. That means that Christ's Church is infallible.

I believe that Church is the Catholic Church for the reasons I've previously mentioned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 09:01 PM

N0help4u,
Yes there are some who claim to be the right or best church, but that doies not make it so.
Jesus established one Church he called My Church and the bible referres to it as The Church in many different verses.
At the very beginning there was just one Church and the bible clearly shows that Peter was the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3 · Jul 24, 2008, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

N0help4u,
Yes there are some who claim to be the right or best church, but that doies not make it so.
Jesus established one Church he called My Church and the bible referres to it as The Church in many different verses.

Quite right. I have seen many claim that their denomination was the only one established by Jesus and that they are the only true church, and you are right - such a claim does not make it so.

Jesus established the body of Christ, not a denomination. The first denomination did not even start until 325 AD.

At the very beginning there was just one Church and the bible clearly shows that Peter was the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Actually, even scripture shows that there were may different churches, if you are referring to organized churches, and since there was no denomination, Peter could not have been the head. Indeed, there is only one true church, which is not an organization, but rather is the body for Christ of which Jesus alone is the head.

Eph 5:23-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 09:07 PM

N0help4u
The book ON This Rock does a very thorough job of showing all that Scripture has to say about The Church and who was appointed by Jesus to be the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3 · Jul 24, 2008, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

N0help4u,
Tj is but one of many who believe in the heresy of scripture alone called Sola Scriptora.

A heresy which is taught in scripture. Hmmmm. :D

These passages also demonstrate that Scipture alone is NOT a biblical teaching.

Really? Do show us.

NO WHERE in the bible is a statement that "scripture alone" is to be believed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

What was the one source that Jesus used when established what sound doctrine was? I bet you don't answer. ;)

Tj3 · Jul 24, 2008, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

N0help4u
The book ON This Rock does a very thorough job of showing all that Scripture has to say about The Church and who was appointed by Jesus to be the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Do you know who scripture says that the Rock is?

1 Cor 10:4
Or they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
NKJV

Throughout scripture, we find that the Rock is symbolic of Christ. Any teaching or tradition which says otherwise is in contradiction to God's word.

Tj3 · Jul 24, 2008, 09:13 PM

[QUOTE=De Maria]Its been a while since I started this thread, but I believe I started it in response to someone on this forum saying just that.

In addition, I think TJ does. And even if TJ doesn't, there is a long tradition of people in the reformed traditions who claim that Scripture alone is the rule of faith.
[/quote[]

I never said to listen to scripture alone. I said that scripture alone is the standard of truth. Many who do not understand or have never studied Sola Scriptura post the erroneous understanding that it means that we listen to scripture alone.

Therefore, they don't believe that the Church is infallible nor that the Church has authority over man.

No denomination is inafallible, nor will you find such a concept in scripture. So any tradition that claims otherwise is in contradiction to scripture. God alone is perfect and infallible.

Tj3 · Jul 24, 2008, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I believe that Church teachings should be backed by scripture but then you have different denominations that say THEY are the only ones that interpret it right.

That is the problem. When a denomination - any denomination - claims the right to interpret scripture, they are teaching contrary to scripture.

2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Note that this say "NO MAN". That means none of us on this thread, that means not the pastor at your church or mine, not the head of the Church of England, not the Pope, no one.
Scripture interprets scripture.

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 09:16 PM

Tj3,
Once again the bible teaches in several different passages which I have posted sever times for you over the years and again I posted them here today.
You chose to ignore ALL that the bible says about that and of course that is your right to believe as you wish.
The bible teaches no heresies for which to believe.
That has been dreamed up by people who came along after Jesus establishef His Church with Peter as its first leader.
Nothing you can say or will change that fact of Biblical Truth and actual history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 09:22 PM

Tj3,
Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter which means rock.
Jesus said that Peter would be THE Rock on which he would build His Church and that prophesy came true and has been true for 2000 years.
Those are facts whether you want to believe them or not.
All of your arguments otherwise are useless in the face of those facts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3 · Jul 24, 2008, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter which means rock.

Actually, it means "stone"

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

Jesus said that Peter would be THE Rock on which he would build His Church and that prophesy came true and has been true for 2000 years.

Actually was the declaration of who Jesus is. Jesus is the foundation of the church.

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

If a tradition claims that there is any foundation other then Christ (whether it be Peter or something/someone else), it is in contradiction to scripture.

Those are facts whether you want to believe them or not.
All of your arguments otherwise are useless in the face of those facts.

arcura · Jul 24, 2008, 10:06 PM

Tj3,
Twist it ant way you want to, Tom, but a rock is a stone and a stone is a rock.
I know what the bible and history says so anything you say in attempt to make me believe otherwise is useless.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)