[JoeT777]

“And if necessary use words” – somebody help me out, who said that, was it St. John of the Cross? It's driving me crazy! I've googeled it every way I know how. I know I read it somewhere!

Frustrated Hillbilly

JoeT

The actual quote: “preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words”. It is normally attributed to St. Francis of Assisi. (1182 – 1226 A.D.)

John of the Cross Juan, de Yepes Alvarez (1542 – 1591 A.D.) close; only missed it by 365 years, that's within 18% of 2008 years of Catholic history. Not bad!

[Tj3]

In other words, St. Paul is saying, "preach! teach! Remember to use the Bible, it is useful for that purpose, but by all means pass on what you've heard of me and preach, teach, rebuke and correct in all doctrine and wisdom!"

That isn't Sola Scriptura, that is Tradition in word and epistle.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It only violates sola scriptura if you claimk that Paul was preaching something other than sound Bible based doctrine.

Are you calling Paul a heretic?

[De Maria]

It only violates sola scriptura if you claimk that Paul was preaching something other than sound Bible based doctrine.

Obviously St. Paul isn't teaching the Bible alone since he expects everyone to believe and obey him regardless of what they understand in the Bible.

2 Timothy 4 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:

Are you calling Paul a heretic?

No. I'm saying that St. Paul is a perfect example of the Magisterium. The teaching Church. He, a Bishop of Christ's Church, teaches the truths of Jesus Christ and teaches others to pass on those teachings BY WORD AND EPISTLE. Not by Scripture alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Obviously St. Paul isn't teaching the Bible alone since he expects everyone to believe and obey him regardless of what they understand in the Bible.

Not true.

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

[JoeT777]

It only violates sola scriptura if you claimk that Paul was preaching something other than sound Bible based doctrine.

Obviously St. Paul isn't teaching the Bible alone since he expects everyone to believe and obey him regardless of what they understand in the Bible.

De Maria:

So which version of the Bible do you think was in vogue during Paul’s sojourns? Do you think he used the King James Version?

JoeT

[De Maria]

De Maria:

So which version of the Bible do you think was in vogue during Paul’s sojourns? Do you think he used the King James Version?

JoeT

Excellent point!! I think it was the Septuagint.

[De Maria]

Not true.

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

If this were an example of the Bible alone, why did Paul and Silas first explain the doctrine? Then the Bereans searched for it in the Old Testament. Not the New Testament. That is important. The Bereans were searching the Old Testament Scriptures to confirm what Paul and Silas taught them about Jesus Christ!!

This is an example of oral Tradition, Scripture and the teaching Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

If this were an example of the Bible alone, why did Paul and Silas first explain the doctrine?

References please - what are you referring to here? Vague claims do not cut it.

[De Maria]

References please - what are you referring to here? Vague claims do not cut it.

We're discussing Acts 17:10 - 12 which you posted.

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

If this were an example of the Bible alone, why did Paul and Silas first explain the doctrine? Then the Bereans searched for it in the Old Testament. Not the New Testament. That is important. The Bereans were searching the Old Testament Scriptures to confirm what Paul and Silas taught them about Jesus Christ!!

This is an example of oral Tradition, Scripture and the teaching Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

We're discussing Acts 17:10 - 12 which you posted.

Good.

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

If this were an example of the Bible alone, why did Paul and Silas first explain the doctrine?

Do you see an issue with preaching or explaining Biblical doctrine? I don't - in fact that sola scriptura promotes.

Then the Bereans searched for it in the Old Testament. Not the New Testament. That is important. The Bereans were searching the Old Testament Scriptures to confirm what Paul and Silas taught them about Jesus Christ!!

What? You think that the Old testament does not speak about Jesus? Here is another spot where Paul is speaking about the Old testament.

2 Tim 3:14-16
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

I often use the Old Testament to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses and others about the truth of Jesus Christ and who He is. If you do not know about the wealth of teachings about Jesus and in fact His appearances in the Old Testament, then you need to spend much more time studying the Old testament.

This is an example of oral Tradition, Scripture and the teaching Church.

Two out of three. No man made tradition in this passage.

[De Maria]

Do you see an issue with preaching or explaining Biblical doctrine? I don't - in fact that sola scriptura promotes.

Illogically in that respect. Because obviously, when one preaches his understanding of the Scriptures he is declaring himself an authority. If there is only one authority, Sola Scriptura, then those Sola Scripturists who claim to believe in the sole authority of Scripture, are contradicting themselves.

What? You think that the Old testament does not speak about Jesus?

It is Catholic doctrine that Jesus Christ is hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New. But since you think that the Old Testament is speaking about Jesus Christ explicitly, show me where he is mentioned by name.

[quote] Here is another spot where Paul is speaking about the Old testament.

2 Tim 3:14-16
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV[quote]

Great. Now show me how one can read the Old Testament alone and learn the Gospels without the interceding of Church teaching.

I often use the Old Testament to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses and others about the truth of Jesus Christ and who He is. If you do not know about the wealth of teachings about Jesus and in fact His appearances in the Old Testament, then you need to spend much more time studying the Old testament.

Thank you. Exactly the Catholic point. Note how you are teaching the Jehova witnesses where to find references of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament.

Without your help they would not find them.

That very same fact is reflected in this Scripture verse, the Apostles were teaching the Bereans where the Old Testament referred to Jesus Christ. The Bereans would not have found those references otherwise since the Old Testament does not refer to Jesus Christ explicitly.

Therefore, the Catholic Church does not teach Scripture alone, but Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.

Two out of three. No man made tradition in this passage.

Even if it is two out of three it means that it isn't Scripture alone.

But what you call man made tradition, we call Sacred Tradition. In this case the mandate of Jesus Christ that we should teach what He taught.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Illogically in that respect. Because obviously, when one preaches his understanding of the Scriptures he is declaring himself an authority.

That makes no sense. Maybe some of your preachers are so arrogant, but I would not stay in any church for one minute if I saw any preachers preaching anything which was not scriptural, and if the preacher tried to establish himself rather than scripture as the authority. If that is the w3ay it is in your church, get out now.

It is Catholic doctrine that Jesus Christ is hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New. But since you think that the Old Testament is speaking about Jesus Christ explicitly, show me where he is mentioned by name.

Saintjoan already did. But even if He were not mentioned by name, He is mentioned explicitly and speaks in the Old Testament. He is not hidden as your denomination's private interpretation says.

Great. Now show me how one can read the Old Testament alone and learn the Gospels without the interceding of Church teaching.

That is a whole other topic. I would suggest that you start a new thread rather than trying to further sidetrack this one. Even if you have not studied the Old testament enough to be aware of it, is it not enough that Paul says that it is there in God's inspired word? Are you saying that the Bible errs?

Thank you. Exactly the Catholic point. Note how you are teaching the Jehova witnesses where to find references of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament.

And I have taught Roman Catholics, too.

[sndbay]

Good.

I often use the Old Testament to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses and others about the truth of Jesus Christ and who He is. If you do not know about the wealth of teachings about Jesus and in fact His appearances in the Old Testament, then you need to spend much more time studying the Old testament.

Was Jesus teaching scripture on the cross, or was He proclaiming what had been written 1000 year before it happened?

Psalm 22

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

[Tj3]

Was Jesus teaching scripture on the cross, or was He proclaiming what had been written 1000 year before it happened?

Psalm 22

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I would suggest that He was fulfilling prophecy.

[De Maria]

That makes no sense. Maybe some of your preachers are so arrogant, but I would not stay in any church for one minute if I saw any preachers preaching anything which was not scriptural, and if the preacher tried to establish himself rather than scripture as the authority. If that is the w3ay it is in your church, get out now.

Take the wood out of your eye. You are teaching against Scripture.

saintjoan already did.

No she didn't.

but even if He were not mentioned by name,

You know that He isn't mentioned by name. So why the pretense?

He is mentioned explicitly

If He is not mentioned by name, then He is not mentioned explicitly.

and speaks in the Old Testament. He is not hidden as your denomination's private interpretation says.

Then why didn't all the Jews recognize Him immediately when He arrived?

That is a whole other topic.

No it isn't. You simply want to leave the subject because you know you've been proven wrong.

It is Jesus who gave the key to understanding the Old Testament:

John 5 46 For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me.

Luke 24 44 And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Therefore, the Jews did not recognize Jesus in the Old Testament until He told them so.

I would suggest that you start a new thread rather than trying to further sidetrack this one.

No. This is precisely what we are talking about. Jesus commanded that the Apostles teach:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The Catholic Church continues to obey the Traditions which Jesus Christ established. Therefore, it is Church, Sacred Tradition and Scripture. Sola Scriptura is not taught in Scripture.

Even if you have not studied the Old testament enough to be aware of it, is it not enough that Paul says that it is there in God's inspired word?

What are you talking about now. Obviously you have changed the subject because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

Are you saying that the Bible errs?

Nope. As I've said over and over. It is your interpretation of the Bible which is wrong.

And I have taught Roman Catholics, too.

If you taught them what you proclaimed above, you taught them error.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Take the wood out of your eye. You are teaching against Scripture.

I am quoting scripture, not following denominational teachings of men.

No she didn't.

You know that He isn't mentioned by name. So why the pretense?

If He is not mentioned by name, then He is not mentioned explicitly.

Then why didn't all the Jews recognize Him immediately when He arrived?

No it isn't. You simply want to leave the subject because you know you've been proven wrong.

Just the same old, same old denials.

It is Jesus who gave the key to understanding the Old Testament:

John 5 46 For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me.

Luke 24 44 And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Therefore, the Jews did not recognize Jesus in the Old Testament until He told them so.

Jesus - not your denomination. Jesus is God and He sent the Holy Spirit, not your denomination.

No. This is precisely what we are talking about. Jesus commanded that the Apostles teach:

No one is arguing against teaching. I teach the Bible also.

The Catholic Church continues to obey the Traditions which Jesus Christ established.

You keep saying this but refuse to show where Jesus "commanded tradition". Is the same Jesus that left your church and appointed someone else in his place because he had to leave?

My Jesus is omnipotent and omnipresent and never left. I'd be happy to introduce you.

[De Maria]

I am quoting scripture, not following denominational teachings of men.

You are quoting Scripture and then attributing erroneous explanations to the quotes.

Just the same old, same old denials.

I'm pretty thorough about explaining my denials. Just as I'm doing in this message.

Jesus - not your denomination. Jesus is God and He sent the Holy Spirit, not your denomination.

Jesus established the Catholic Church and He sent her to teach.

No one is arguing against teaching. I teach the Bible also.

Then you have just proved that Scripture alone is a false teaching. If you need to teach the Bible, then the Bible is not alone.

You keep saying this but refuse to show where Jesus "commanded tradition".

Right here:
Matthew 28 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 11 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. 24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

Is the same Jesus that left your church

Jesus did not leave the Church. He is still the Head.

and appointed someone else in his place because he had to leave?

But He did appoint someone to rule in His place.

My Jesus is omnipotent and omnipresent and never left. I'd be happy to introduce you.

If you truly knew Jesus, you would embrace His Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

You are quoting Scripture and then attributing erroneous explanations to the quotes.

If that were true, you'd be able to go to the context and refute what I said - but you can't.

Jesus established the Catholic Church and He sent her to teach.

Why would Jesus come to earth in the 1st century and start a denomination in the 4th?

Then you have just proved that Scripture alone is a false teaching. If you need to teach the Bible, then the Bible is not alone.

I never said that I believed in scripture alone. In fact I have said the opposite many times. I believe in sola scriptura. If you think that they are the same thing, then I would suggest that you do some reading on the topic before trying to engage those knowledgeable in it.

And if you think that teaching the Bible is somehow contrary to sola scriptura, then I don't believe that you have even gottne to ground level in understanding sola scriptura.

Jesus did not leave the Church. He is still the Head.

He did not leave my church, but you said that left someone else in charge of yours. It must be a different Jesus, or for someone reason Jesus left your church and stayed at mine. If I were you, I'd be concerned ab out that.

But He did appoint someone to rule in His place.

Jesus stayed to rule at my church.

Duid you church say something that made Him want to leave? :D

[De Maria]

If that were true, you'd be able to go to the context and refute what I said - but you can't.

I've done so every time.

Why would Jesus come to earth in the 1st century and start a denomination in the 4th?

That is your twisting of the facts. Jesus established His Church in the 1st Century.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I never said that I believed in scripture alone. In fact I have said the opposite many times. I believe in sola scriptura.

Sola Scriptura means Scripture alone. The word "Sola" is Latin for "alone". The word "Scriptura" is Latin for Scripture.

If you think that they are the same thing, then I would suggest that you do some reading on the topic before trying to engage those knowledgeable in it.

They do mean the same thing:

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") Is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

Scripture Catholic - SCRIPTURE ALONE ("SOLA SCRIPTURA")
Scripture Catholic.com provides citations regarding SCRIPTURE ALONE - SOLA SCRIPTURA.
www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html

Soli Deo Gloria! For the Glory of God Alone - the Five Solas of...
Sola Scriptura: The Scripture Alone is the Standard. The doctrine that the Bible alone is the ultimate authority was the "Formal Principle" of the ...
Soli Deo Gloria! For the Glory of God Alone - the Five Solas of the Reformation

It would seem you don't know what Sola Scriptura means. Above we have a representative sample. A neutral site, Wikipedia, a Catholic site, and a Reformed site all define Sola Scriptura as Scripture alone.

And if you think that teaching the Bible is somehow contrary to sola scriptura, then I don't believe that you have even gottne to ground level in understanding sola scriptura.

In essence then, you have proved the illogical aspect of Sola Scriptura. If you have the authority to teach Scripture, then Scripture is not alone.

If you believe the Bible teaches that you must teach Scripture, then you have proven that the Bible does not teach Scripture alone, but Scripture and Teaching. Which is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. That is why She accepts the Magisterial mission. Magisterium is Latin for "Teacher".

He did not leave my church, but you said that left someone else in charge of yours.

Yes. He is our Shepherd. But the Shepherd left Peter to "feed" His sheep:

John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

It must be a different Jesus, or for someone reason Jesus left your church and stayed at mine. If I were you, I'd be concerned ab out that.

Are you sure? Because Jesus left us His peace when He left:

John 14 26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, do I give unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid. 28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you.

And He told us that if He didn't leave us we would not receive the Holy Spirit:

John 16 7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus stayed to rule at my church.

Then, according to Scripture, you haven't received the Holy Spirit.

Duid you church say something that made Him want to leave? :D

Lol!! Very funny. ;)

Actually, it is in our Church where He remains, but in Sacramental fashion. His Real Presence in the guise of Bread and Wine. In the Body of Christ His Church and in the Word of God Tradition and Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[sndbay]

Ruler Over Heaven or Earth

Colossians 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And He is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18-19 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence .For it pleased [The Father] that in Him should all fulness dwell And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven