[NeedKarma]

I believe one can be fanatical about any number of things, religion just being one of them; one could be fanatical about a baseball team for example.

[Synnen]

Or about politics ;)

[NeedKarma]

Or about politics ;)

That's a biggee. :)

[southamerica]

And we may be hijacking this thread.

I recall y'all and Dwashbur were going to start another thread. Maybe we should do it in Member Discussions?

[Wondergirl]

I recall y'all and Dwashbur were going to start another thread.

Dwashbur and someone else were going to. I was just cheering them on.

[dwashbur]

The late great Walter Martin used to talk about three different kinds of apologetics.

First, there's the upper-stratum intellectual type, which almost nobody takes seriously because they don't understand the vocabulary.

Second, there's pop apologetics. This is where well-informed people take the stuff from the upper deck and bring it down to a vocabulary level that regular people can grasp. He used to describe it as "Get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor, where the cows can get at it."

Third, there's slop apologetics. That's where somebody gloms onto a little of this and a little of that, thinks he knows something, goes charging into a discussion and gets creamed.

I think we know what brand sawsall is practicing. I would just ask everybody not to judge all of us by him.

[ScottGem]

Scott, how do I say this gently, read the Bible! yes, you can have assurance in Heaven, anyone can. You have to Repent of your sins, and give your life to Jesus.

I'm not going to bother being gentle. You don't deserve it. How would you like it if I said to you that what you believe is all lies and that you are a sinner because of it. You wouldn't like it, would you? So what do you think gives you ANY right to say the same thing to me?

I have given you the courtesy of accepting that you believe what you do. I have not challenged your beliefs. I've simply stated that I don't share those beliefs. I have expressed that I am glad for you that you find comfort in your faith. But I DEMAND the same courtesy, at least on this site.

I don't "have" to repent anything. I don't "have" to do anything. I am completely comfortable with my beliefs and that I lead a good, moral and ethical life. Can you say the same?

[sawsall02]

My apologies if have offended anyone. Please forgive me. I need to start over, and make thing's a little more clear. First, we need to prove that everything in the universe CANNOT come from NOTHINGNESS. I know I have said, look at the "Laws of Physics", but what I meant to say was look at the "Laws of Thermaldynamics". Please look at this:http://www.doesgodexist.org/JulAug06/TheLawsofThermodynamics.html

[sawsall02]

Hello again,

This is a better site to teach about the "Laws of Thermaldynamics", however it is a little lengthy. But for those of you who are interested:http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106

[TUT317]

Hello again,

This is a better site to teach about the "Laws of Thermaldynamics", however it is a little lengthy. But for those of you who are interested:Apologetics Press - God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer?s Perspective

Hi Sawsall,

I have looked at both arguments and there is a similar theme. That is, the universe is a closed system because it had a beginning in time. Without any 'input' the universe will 'run down' In other words, it will suffer a heat death because of increasing entropy.

Leaving other objections aside, the major problem from my point of view is that the theory depends on the universe having a beginning. i.e The Big Bang. If The Big Bang theory is incorrect and the universe has always existed ( no beginning in time) then the idea of the second law of thermodynamics operating in a closed system is no longer relevant.

Science does not know if The Big Bang theory is correct. At the moment there are a number of competing theories so it is impossible to draw any conclusions as presented in the links provided.

Tut

[sawsall02]

And the answer is- GOD. There had to be an outside supernatural force that could alter these laws. An open system. We cannot explain any other way around this. These laws have always been in place, never changing. I know I get passionate about my faith, but if you're an Evolutionist, trying to explain the unexplainable, doesn't this take faith as well? This is why I think Creation, and Evolution are a Religion.

[Synnen]

But what if there never WAS nothingness?

Nothing can be created from nothing. Energy to matter or matter to energy--SOMETHING has always existed.

So... your theory is COMPLETELY based on the idea that God created something out of nothing.

I say that there was never "nothing". There was ALWAYS "something".

That "something" to YOU is a god. It isn't to ME. Therefore, all of your arguments do not work on me, because MY something could have been a bunch of ping pong balls bouncing around in multiple universes, for all I know. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't a god that gave of himself to create EVERYTHING.

I guess that if you go with THAT idea, the whole thing could have been created when some god sneezed.

But the laws that you quote do NOT prove that YOUR god exists.

[sawsall02]

Hi Synnen,

Correct! A supernatural force "God", had to have alway's been in existence. Now that I have proven this, now I can prove the God of the Bible, is the one, and only true God.

[Synnen]

Nope--WRONG!

SOMETHING has always existed.

That something doesn't have to be a god.

It could have simply been all of the rocks and energy in the universe, forever and ever. No supernatural being need be involved at all.

[classyT]

Synn,

REALLY? All the rocks and energy forever. Wow! How utterly lucky for us. Out that came ALL of this order? The sun is right were it should be, so is the moon not to mention... intelligent life, DNA.. ect. etc. Oh well to each his own but I don't have enough FAITH to believe that... ;)

Carry on.. I don't have anything to offer really on the topic. Believing in God is about faith not proof. I can't prove anything.

[Synnen]

I'm not saying I necessarily BELIEVE that it was rocks and energy

Just that the laws of thermodynamics don't PROVE that a god exists.

[sawsall02]

Synnen this is for you, but if anyone else wants to check it out go ahead. This website I just found is amazing, it's quite a long read but makes my point to a "T". Also this has been difficult for me since I've never had typing.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm

Thanks.

[TUT317]

And the answer is- GOD. There had to be an outside supernatural force that could alter these laws. An open system. We cannot explain any other way around this. These laws have always been in place, never changing. I know I get passionate about my faith, but if your an Evolutionist, trying to explain the unexplainable, doesn,t this take faith as well? This is why I think Creation, and Evolution are a Religion.

Hi Sawall,

You were asking about the laws of thermodynamics and the argument stands on its own. The second law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. If the second laws of thermodynamics are accurate ( which it is) then there must have been a time when the universe existed in a highly ordered state (zero entropy). It is not unreasonable to put forward the possibility that someone was responsible for this order in the beginning.

The assumption is of course,there was a beginning. We don't know if there was a beginning as generally understood (Big Bang). As I said there are a number of competing theories at the moment. Even if thermodynamics, evolution are related we don't know how.The conclusions drawn as per the links are speculation.


Tut

[Wondergirl]

Synnen this is for you, but if anyone else wants to check it out go ahead. This website I just found is amazing, it's quite a long read but makes my point to a "T". Also this has been difficult for me since I've never had typing.

4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible

Thanks.

No, sawsall, that's not proof. In fact, it barely touches on "proof" before the site is off and running in an attempt to convert the reader. Christians cannot prove God exists. It is a matter of faith.

[Synnen]

Face it, Sawsall.

You CAN NOT PROVE that God exists. Every single "proof" I have EVER heard for the existence of god could substitute pingpong balls instead of god and would still work for logic--but not for proof of god.

You cannot prove something that you have to take on faith.