[Tj3]

I believe you've misunderstood what that Catholic source said. Either that or you deliberately misrepresented what that Catholic source said.

I know that this must be rough on you - finding out that what you have been taught is not true, but before making false accusations, why not check it out for yourself. BTW, I have a great book written by a Catholic scholar on the Catholic decisions regarding the canon and the addition of the 7 books.

Its hard for me to believe that a Catholic source worth its weight does not know that the Latin Vulgate produced by SAINT Jerome included within its pages the 73 books of the Catholic Canon.

Maybe once again you are mixing up the inclusion of reference material with your personal assumption that inclusion means that it was accepted as canonical. Check out the facts for yourself, but be prepared for some discomfort. If you are not prepared to be challenged, you may wish to avoid checking things out. It may be too much of a shock to your system!

BTW, perhaps you failed to note that the Catholic Encyclopedia did not stop with Jerome, but traced the events right through to the Council of Trent when the decision to add the books was made.

[Tj3]

Not at all. I am simply stating that you have misunderstood what he wrote. Either that or you are twisting the meaning of his words, something which you have been prone to do in our discussions. I can point to several occasions where you have twisted the meaning of my words.

I know that it is rough on you to have anon-Catholic showing you things from Catholic sources that you did not know exist, but that is no reason to make false accusations.

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We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, proces­sions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.
(Source: An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine)
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I don't see where he says that Constantine started the new religion.

I highlighted for you to make it easy for you to read!

[De Maria]

I know that it is rough on you to have anon-Catholic showing you things from Catholic sources that you did not know exist, but that is no reason to make false accusations.

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We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, proces­sions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.
(Source: An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine)
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I highlighted for you to make it easy for you to read!

You highlighted the words "new religion". That doesn't say that St. Constantine created a new religion but that he recommended it.

In order to recommend the new religion to the heathen,

So please, try again.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

You highlighted the words "new religion". That doesn't say that St. Constantine created a new religion but that he recommended it.

in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen,

So please, try again.

It was a new religion - that is all that is necessary. That in context with the rest of the passage, as we as the historical record makes it clear.

I don't need to try again.

[De Maria]

It was a new religion - that is all that is necessary. That in context with the rest of the passage, as we as the historical record makes it clear.

I don't need to try again.

You do if you want to be accurate. But if you simply want to argue and don't care about the truth, then have it your way.

Correct, the Catholic Church was a new religion IN ROME. But not a religion created by St. Constantine which is what you alleged.

The fact of the matter is, and if you had paid attention in history class you would know, that St. Constantine, the Emperor of Rome, did away with the OLD Roman religion of "Emperor Worship" and recommended the NEW religion of Jesus Christ which was taught by the Catholic Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

You do if you want to be accurate. But if you simply want to argue and don't care about the truth, then have it your way.

Seems to me that is the approach that you are taking since you take a couple of words out of context and then declare your decree as to how the rest of us should understand it, despite what history tells us.

Correct, the Catholic Church was a new religion IN ROME. But not a religion created by St. Constantine which is what you alleged.

I know that this may be more difficult to go through if you have not studied what happened with Constantine and the church in 325, but please at least read the whole statement from your Cardinal about how Constantine brought the pagan practices from the pagan Roman religion into the church.

Did you know that Constantine was the high priest of the pagan Roman religion? Did you know that the high priest was called the "Pontifex Maximus" or "Pontiff" for short? Who do you think holds that office today!

[ScottRC]

You do if you want to be accurate. But if you simply want to argue and don't care about the truth, then have it your way.

What I find most amusing is the use of Newman... a man who completely rejected the heresy of Protestantism and the foolishness of "sola scriptura".

When Newman believed the Church began is of no real consequence to me... I prefer to look to sources a bit closer to the nascent Church and Nicea for that... and all evidence (Scriptural and historical from the ECF's) show a church that has a sacramental ecclesiology and is centered around a hierarchy of Bishops who have final authority on doctrine.


Peace be with you.

[Tj3]

What I find most amusing is the use of Newman.... a man who completely rejected the heresy of Protestantism and the foolishness of "sola scriptura".

I am not a protestant, but protestantism comes a whole lot closer to Biblical Christianity than the errors of Roman Catholicism.

[De Maria]

Seems to me that is the approach that you are taking since you take a couple of words out of context and then declare your decree as to how the rest of us should understand it, despite what history tells us.



I know that this may be more difficult to go through if you have not studied what happened with Constantine and the church in 325, but please at least read the whole statement from your Cardinal about how Constantine brought the pagan practices from the pagan Roman religion into the church.

Did you know that Constantine was the high priest of the pagan Roman religion?

No. St. Constantine was not a priest at all but the monarch of the Roman Empire.

Did you know that the high priest was called the "Pontifex Maximus" or "Pontiff" for short? Who do you think holds that office today!

The Pontiff or Pope, is the Vicar of Christ, successor of Peter who was placed there by Jesus Christ precisely to be the visible head of His Church. Why do you think He named him Rock?

Have you not noticed that in Scripture, there is only one Rock and that Rock is Christ?

So, when Jesus Christ named Simon, Peter, which means Rock, He was signifying that Peter would rule in His stead. This is not something new. God did it before when He sent Moses in His stead to rule over Pharoa:

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

That is why God covered Moses in the cloud:
Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

And therefore people came to Moses to know God's will:
Exodus 18 15 And Moses answered him: The people come to me to seek the judgment of God.

And that is precisely the role that the Pope and the Church play for us today.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

No. St. Constantine was not a priest at all but the monarch of the Roman Empire.

Then you have not studied history of the Roman Empire. I also provided you a link which apparently you chose not to check out. Denying the facts does not change reality.

The Pontiff or Pope, is the Vicar of Christ, successor of Peter who was placed there by Jesus Christ precisely to be the visible head of His Church. Why do you think He named him Rock?

Jesus is the Rock. Scripture says so. Peter was a Stone. That is explicitly stated in scripture - references were given earlier. Maybe you ignored those also.

Have you not noticed that in Scripture, there is only one Rock and that Rock is Christ?

This is what I told you earlier. If you know this, certainly you realize the blasphemy of claiming Peter to the Rock.

[sndbay]

In the meantime, I find the three prong Catholic Tradition is confirmed in Scripture:

First we are instructed to listen to the Church:

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
De Maria

The church would be the balance to reflect righteousness in judgement of right and wrong when needed. In other words if a righteous man needed help in showing right from the wrong, he then would ask the church to confirm the righteousness of his action or what is spoken.

Two, we are instructed that the Word of God is passed on orally:
1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
De Maria

Amen to that.. Ye receive the Word of God that they teach or minister with and in Truth

As well as by Scripture, and therefore it follows; three, that we keep traditions by word and scripture.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Perhaps we could analyze these Scriptures to see whether or not they contradict the notion that Scripture is the only standard for Christian doctrine.

Sincerely,

De Maria

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Traditions = a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching b) of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

Whether by word = 1) of speech a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea b) what someone has said 1) a word 2) the sayings of God 3) decree, mandate or order 4) of the moral precepts given by God 5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

or our epistle = a letter, Act 15:30, Romans 16:22, 1 Corthinaims 5:9 a letter of commandation,

Note now: go back to, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-14 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What did they not receive? Truth.. Found where? In Truth = The Word = scripture

Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note now you can take 2:15 and remember or understand what traditions were, what the word spoken is, and what their episle is... 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Note: The last verse 2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

That is am important verse also. It does not say comfort you heart in traditions 1.stablish where? The Word 2. and what service of work? Servant to God Our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

None of this say make up traditions to follow, nor does it put traditions that were established, above that of Word of truth. Follow the Light in Christ because it does say God will send those who do not strong delusion

~In Christ

[De Maria]

The church would be the balance to reflect righteousness in judgement of right and wrong when needed. In other words if a righteous man needed help in showing right from the wrong, he then would ask the church to confirm the righteousness of his action or what is spoken.



Amen to that.. Ye receive the Word of God that they teach or minister with and in Truth



2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Traditions = a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching b) of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

Whether by word = 1) of speech a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea b) what someone has said 1) a word 2) the sayings of God 3) decree, mandate or order 4) of the moral precepts given by God 5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

or our epistle = a letter, Act 15:30, Romans 16:22, 1 Corthinaims 5:9 a letter of commandation,

Note now: go back to, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-14 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What did they not receive? Truth.. Found where? in Truth = The Word = scripture

Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note now you can take 2:15 and remember or understand what traditions were, what the word spoken is, and what their episle is... 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Note: The last verse 2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

That is am important verse also. It does not say comfort you heart in traditions 1.stablish where? The Word 2. and what service of work? Servant to God Our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

None of this say make up traditions to follow, nor does it put traditions that were established, above that of Word of truth. Follow the Light in Christ because it does say God will send those who do not strong delusion

~In Christ

I agree with everything you've said in this message.

So our difference lies elsewhere.

I am of the impression and I believe I can prove it, that the tradition known as Sola Scriptura is man made and that it contradicts Scripture.

Would you care to show me where this tradition is taught in Scripture?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ScottRC]

Of course we know that divine tradition takes precidence over the word of God.

That is incorrect.

"As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
(CCC #82 cf. DV 9)

[Tj3]

That is incorrect.

"As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
(CCC #82 cf. DV 9)

Actually, what we find, and have seen on here, is that no matter what scripture says, the Roman Church interprets it according to their denominational tradition. That gives the denominational tradition precedence over the Word of God (the Bible).

[De Maria]

Actually, what we find, and have seen on here, is that no matter what scripture says, the Roman Church interprets it according to their denominational tradition.

That is according to Scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2
14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

That gives the denominational tradition precedence over the Word of God (the Bible).

No. That is simply acknowledging what Scripture teaches. That the Traditions of God, either by word or by scripture are both the Word of God:

Acts Of Apostles 13 5 And when they were come to Salamina, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John also in the ministry.

Acts Of Apostles 13 46 Then Paul and Barnabas said boldly: To you it behoved us first to speak the word of God: but because you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold we turn to the Gentiles.

2 Timothy 2 9 Wherein I labour even unto bands, as an evildoer; but the word of God is not bound.

Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Therefore the traditions do not take precedence one over the other but hand in hand they confirm the truth of one and the other. Oral Tradition confirms Scripture and Scripture confirms Oral Tradition.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

agrees: What De Maria is assuming that what Paul taught in person was a separate body of truths from what he taught by epistle. This contradicts 2 Thess. 2:5; 2 Peter 1:12...

No actually. The same truths taught in person are the same taught in epistle. If one deviates from the other, there is a problem.

[Tj3]

That is according to Scripture:
2 Thessalonians 2
14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Note that what Paul was teaching was given 2 ways - word and epistle. Paul is no longer here to speak to us, so we have the epistle.

[De Maria]

The acceptance of church traditions must be our final authority, even if it contradicts what is taught in the word of God.

Tradition is the Word of God:

97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 97

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Note that what Paul was teaching was given 2 ways - word and epistle. Paul is no longer here to speak to us, so we have the epistle.

Note that St. Paul did not say, "Tim, I'm sending you this epistle that you may pass it around and let everyone read it".

Nor is he saying, "Tim, I've said everything in my epistles that need be said. No need for you to repeat it."

Instead St. Paul urged St. Timothy to:

2 Tim2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

3 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.


4 1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

In other words, St. Paul is saying, "preach! teach! Remember to use the Bible, it is useful for that purpose, but by all means pass on what you've heard of me and preach, teach, rebuke and correct in all doctrine and wisdom!"

That isn't Sola Scriptura, that is Tradition in word and epistle.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[JoeT777]

Note that St. Paul did not say, "Tim, I'm sending you this epistle that you may pass it around and let everyone read it".

Nor is he saying, "Tim, I've said everything in my epistles that need be said. No need for you to repeat it."

Instead St. Paul urged St. Timothy to:

2 Tim2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

3 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.


4 1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

In other words, St. Paul is saying, "preach! teach! Remember to use the Bible, it is useful for that purpose, but by all means pass on what you've heard of me and preach, teach, rebuke and correct in all doctrine and wisdom!"

That isn't Sola Scriptura, that is Tradition in word and epistle.

Sincerely,

De Maria

“And if necessary use words” – somebody help me out, who said that, was it St. John of the Cross? It's driving me crazy! I've googeled it every way I know how. I know I read it somewhere!

Frustrated Hillbilly

JoeT