[talaniman]

Fact-The budget deficit he has to fix was one he created by cutting corporate taxes to the rich, thus destroying valuable revenue.

Fact-teachers, and other state workers have to make up that deficit I revenues that was created.

Fact-Its not just unions that will be affected by these cuts but all the taxpayers of Wisconsin.

Fact-State workers pay taxes and use the services that other state workers provide. For example teachers getting to school on highways and streets that other state workers have plowed.

Fact-This governor has already cost the state money when he was the budget director of Milwaukee county. The are still paying for his illegal union busting attempts.

Fact-While he seeks to take the rights of Union workers away, he has given himself the power to decide what gets sold, and services contracted by the state, without the benefit of the state bidding process. HMMM! Who will BENEFIT? (See Koch Bros).

Fact- Not the taxpayers.

[spitvenom]

A friend of mine sent this joke figured I'd share it with you since we are on this subject. Im not a big fan of unions but I understand.
A unionized public employee, an ill-inform­ed citizen, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the ill-inform­ed citizen and says, "Watch out for that union guy. He wants a piece of your cookie."

[excon]

"Watch out for that union guy. He wants a piece of your cookie."

Hello again, spit:

Dude! That's hilarious. What makes it so, is that it's SOOOOO close to reality. In fact, it IS reality. It's what FOX news does every day. They take an absolutely ridiculous argument (like that guy wants YOUR cookie), and offer experts all day long, to explain that it's true - that bastard WANTS your cookie. I posted on this very subject over on the FOX and Canada thread. Your joke FITS my post like a glove.

excon

[spitvenom]

Hey Ex
You can repost it if you like.

[Synnen]

As an aside, I just realized that Spitvenom's name doesn't have an E after the T.

I've literally spent a couple years thinking your name was SpitEvenom, not Spitvenom.

I'm so blonde.

[spitvenom]

HAHAHAA No spite. spitvenom is a hip hop term for someone who is amazing in freestyle battles. This person can think of rhymes off the top of their head that makes sense.

[talaniman]

Hello again, spit:

Dude! That's hilarious. What makes it so, is that it's SOOOOO close to reality. In fact, it IS reality. It's what FOX news does every day. They take an absolutely ridiculous argument (like that guy wants YOUR cookie), and offer experts all day long, to explain that it's true - that bastard WANTS your cookie. I posted on this very subject over on the FOX and Canada thread. Your joke FITS my post like a glove.

excon

FACT-The public, nor the state pays for any part of the unions health insurance, OR pension plans!! This money comes from a fund that the worker pays into, Through COLLECTIVE BARGAINING, from their own paychecks that they agreed to instead of taking wage increases over the years. That's the way it works.

So how does cutting pay, AND putting more of their check into their own pension fund save the state? IT DOESN'T! It only makes payroll obligations smaller, but not enough to balance the tax cuts he has already given. That's what his cuts to cities and towns is about. The goal is still getting the wage earners in the state to balance his new budget, by their local budgets.

[tomder55]

I titled the OP 'the choice ' .The choice is either get their salary and compensation in line with the public sector or face layoffs. The State budget can no longer afford gold plated compensation for public employees.

The Legislature allows the collective bargaining and the legislature can change it. NO ONE is talking about renaging on the existing contract. But when that contract comes up it's likely they will be playing under more rational rules .

[Synnen]

And this couldn't be done by just rescinding the big business tax cuts?

Why should the average person pay more and lose more when the very rich are getting more and keeping more?

[tomder55]

You cannot make up the budget shortfalls in either State ,local ,or Federal budgets by 'taxing the rich' to death. But it's the only one size fits all argument the populists have had in this country since the days of Jackson.

[Synnen]

You can't make up budget problems by GIVING TAX CUTS to businesses/the rich, EITHER.

I wouldn't give up MY collective bargaining after tax CUTS to big businesses, either.

If *I* must sacrifice, the RICH must sacrifice, too.

And if there's enough money to give the rich tax cuts, then there's enough to give them to the rest of us too.

I'm REALLY sick of the top 1% of this country's rich controlling 42% of the nation's wealth. Yes, people should get to EARN money and keep it---but they should be subject to the SAME taxes as the rest of us.

[tomder55]

You can't make up budget problems by GIVING TAX CUTS to businesses/the rich, EITHER.

And States can't force businesses to remain in high tax rate states. Here in NY we've seen all types of business flight as the state tried to tax to death businesses to pay for their bloated budgets .

Yeah that worked temporarily when things were prosperous . But now,all the states that remained tied to that flawed model are getting a dose of reality . Even NY's liberal Governor Andrew Cuomo has ridden the road to Damascus on that !

[tomder55]

Yes, people should get to EARN money and keep it---but they should be subject to the SAME taxes as the rest of us.

We are in complete agreement . The wealthy 1 % do pay about half the taxes. We all should pay the same... 1 flat rate ,no deductions.

[smoothy]

And this couldn't be done by just rescinding the big business tax cuts?

Why should the average person pay more and lose more when the very rich are getting more and keeping more?

Tax the businesses and they have to raise the prices of their products to recover that money... and who still pays for it? Right, you do.

You don't see a lot of job providers OR job creation in the projects... but go to the weathier suburbs and you do... its THEY who create many of the jobs along with a lot of middle class people.

Make it too expensive to hire or produce here and the jobs go overseas... or away entirely.

Let the 38% who pay no taxes pay their fair share... and see how popular handouts are going to be when they have to pay for them, themselves.

Class warfare is a typical socialist and Democrat ploy... a certain group is blamed for the poor choices and decisions another group makes... and the group that makes the right choices is expected to be penalized for doing the right thing while the group that doesn't is rewarded for doing all the wrong things.


Seems perfectly logical why so much work has gone overseas when you look at it that way.

THere is what's nice to wish for... then there is reality. A business exists to make money... not provide welfare. It cost money and hard work to make a business that can make money, then people want to take away any profits then did make but did nothing to help them along the way, where the rule is... make a profit or close up. You can't run a business that's always losing money for long. Make it impossible to make money one place, and they will move it to a place more friendly to them. And many times that's overseas.

And I did once work in manufacturing... I left it because I didn't make enough to have been worth attending college and pay for a decade of debt. And the work I did... could NOT be done by any high school grad without advanced degree. And most of those places moved production overseas later. THe problems I saw wasn't the higher ups specifically... but the bloated middle and upper management ranks. Too many paper pushers... for too few workers. Few of them fit the rich guy mould.

I'd tell you what one of those things were... but everyone would know what it was and it could pin me down to a handful of people so I won't.

[talaniman]

FACT-Taxing the rich to death is impossible.

FACT-Tax cuts and loop holes give them the cash to go overseas and hire slave labor!

FACT- You think the slaves over there can afford to buy what they make? No they send it back here for you to buy.

FACT- We are going back to slavery, and your skin color won"t matter one bit. The size of your "GREEN" WILL.

YOU READY TO NEGOTIATE YET?

[tomder55]

Lol the biggest phonies are the sanctimonious rich like Warren Buffett who shelters his income and complains his secretary pays more taxes than he.

Smoothy is 100 % correct in pointing out that taxes are overhead that get passed on to the consumer in higher prices. FACT

Here is the lib rhyme... don't tax you ,don't tax me ,tax that man behind the tree.

"The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money."
— Alexis de Tocqueville

[smoothy]

FACT-Taxing the rich to death is impossible.

FACT-Tax cuts and loop holes give them the cash to go overseas and hire slave labor!!

FACT- You think the slaves over there can afford to buy what they make? No they send it back here for you to buy.

FACT- We are going back to slavery, and your skin color won"t matter one bit. The size of your "GREEN" WILL.

YOU READY TO NEGOTIATE YET?

Really... on what planet? People buy what they can afford... what you call slave labor is anything but. They can quit... and go back to dirt farming which apparently was worse than they do now.

Slave labor did and has existed (and some places does exist undoubtedly)... but products of slave labor aren't allowed to be imported here by federal law. If you know something customs doesn't, give them a call, I encourage it.

Try and tax a rich guys savings... and his money is coming out of acessible means and being hidden.

Really think that's all that hard to do? It isn't. I'm not rich (except for maybe sub-saharan or third world standards) and even I don't have all my money in places democrats can reach. Or even on these shores.

[Synnen]

The point is this:

I would fight for not losing my collective bargaining rights when the state gave tax CUTS to big businesses.

Wisconsin SUCKS for businesses. It really does. But it's AWESOME at education.

How about this? Stop giving STATE grants to people to go to school? I didn't get one, and I was in the upper end of LOWER class when I went to college the first time. I dragged MYSELF out of that environment, so I know it can be done. You can't tell me that I got more opportunities than other people, because I WORKED for my opportunities.

Get rid of welfare and you've solved the state budget problem. End of story.

And actually--can't we place some of the blame for this mess back on the mortgage companies? If so many people weren't in foreclosure due to the housing bubble and bad loans, wouldn't the cities/states still have property tax coming in? Yet I don't see the banks having to make up that difference, or the mortgage companies. As a matter of fact, we BAILED THEM OUT!

And now we've got to give up things like collective bargaining (but not tax cuts for businesses!) so that we can cover the lost revenue that the banks and mortgage companies lost us?

That sounds like a scam, to me.

[talaniman]

QUOTE by smoothy;
Really... on what planet? People buy what they can afford... what you call slave labor is anything but. They can quit... and go back to dirt farming which apparently was worse than they do now.

Slave labor did and has existed (and some places does exist undoubtedly)... but products of slave labor aren't allowed to be imported here by federal law. If you know something customs doesn't, give them a call, I encourage it.

All due respect, but when Walmart, Nike, Chevy, and Caterpillar can manufacture goods overseas and send them back to you for our comsumption, that's slavery.

When public servants are dictated to, that's slavery. And a lot of slavery, without the whips and chains, has always gone on in the USA, until the workers formed unions that changed dictating terms with no choices, into negotiating those choices. Ask any blue collar worker about the conditions BEFORE the unions were formed. Oh I forgot, those factories, and mills have left for the cheap slave labor in other less developed countries. My bad!!

Try and tax a rich guys savings... and his money is coming out of acessible means and being hidden.

Really think that's all that hard to do? It isn't. I'm not rich (except for maybe sub-saharan or third world standards) and even I don't have all my money in places democrats can reach. Or even on these shores.

Wonder where a dirt farmer hides his money, (what money? He has none to hide!).

FACT-Big business is not making jobs, or investing in America for ONE reason, he wants the work rules changed in his favor to go along with all those tax cuts, shelters, and Tax breaks he wants.

FACT- Unions didn't cause this recesion, or the deficits that followed. The guys with the money did, and guess what, workers are footing their bill.

FACT-There was no deficit in Wisconsin until the govenormade one, with his tax breaks.

Forget the feelings, deal with the facts!

Ready to negotiate yet??

[paraclete]

Have you slaughtered any sacred cows lately? It seems someone is trying to drag a sacred cow to the altar and the faithful true believers of the union movement are objecting.

Inevietably you can keep your sacred cows only at the cost of food for the faithful