[Allheart]

No, not on "luck". But I do hang my hat on my own capacities, on my own responsibilities, on my own tolerance for those who had less "luck" than I had in life, and on my feelings of concern and need of others for care. Only that way we can reach here on earth what theists hope to get after they are dead : peace !

I do not need a deity that has never been objectively proved to exist. As a Secular Humanist I care for - specially - the poorest and the weakest under us mortal humans.
Because it is sure THAT many such people exist, and that they require our support.
And while no deity seems to exist, although it is claimed to have gigantic capacities but has never shown itself in an objective way to humanity, I am very skeptic to it's existence.

If only all these theists were less busy trying to improve their odds on a "good" chance for the hereafter, and more busy by spreading the word in an indirect way (by taking better care of their social responsibilities) ... How much better this world would be ...


And you never ask yourself really why amputees NEVER restore limbs, but you believe all these wild claims on "God's" mysterious answering of other people's prayers - all but regrowing amputated limbs? That does not ever plants a little seed of doubt in your mind? Really ?

:)

·

Hi Cred,

My hand to heart, I have never in my 45 years questioned God, His love, His mercy, and I never ever even uttered "Why, God". I mostly say, "God, please help me and others through this".

When my Father-in-law, who has passed, who I miss with all my heart, who I love with all my soul, became an amputee, I never questioned God, but I did pray so hard, to help us all through it. And Cred, He did. He brought my Father-in-law home, to a place of peace and had the most peaceful and loving passing. I am so grateful to God for that.

What does my heart so good, is that you have a beautiful loving wife, who does believe in words and in actions. Now Cred, I am going to be hyprocrital here, and apologize in advance because I could never even consider, for one second, to contemplate, hmmm maybe God doesn't exsist. I'm sorry, I just couldn't do that. It would be like you having the most loving Father, who was always there for you, held your little hand through all your scrapes, and one day you approach him and ask, "Are you really my father?". So, Cred, I couldn't ever consider it.

And here is where I become hyprocrital, did you ever, even for a second, think, that maybe, just maybe, God bless you with your beautiful wife, not only to bring you great happiness, but through her, in His heart, He is hoping her love for you and your love for her, can bring you to God's love?

Our Father, tries so many loving ways to bring us to Him, but if we keep hanging up the phone on Him, there will be a day, He stops calling.

I hope you take all of this in the loving way it is truly meant.

[wildandblue]

I don't mind him hanging around my thread. He obviously wants something. Like he says he's discriminated against having no forum of his own. And if he didn't hang around there'd be no opportunity to witness to him. Although from what other members have said he's been witnessed to by Bushg and Maria for over 8 years, so don't hold your breath. I'd like to say that I was once bitten by a brown recluse spider, this spider bite causes gangrene and the tip of my finger turned black and fell off. But it grew back. Apparently a finger cut above the last joint will do this too. So there may be an answer out there for regenerating whole limbs some day in stem cell research or some other place. Like at one time we knew nothing about CPR or open heart surgery (or surgery of any kind)I'd like to know how when a caterpillar turns into a butterfly, how does he do that, and where do all his legs go?So if a little butterfly can grow wings where he had none before, there is something at work there that we don't yet understand.

[Credendovidis]

I don't mind him hanging around my thread. He obviously wants something.

The idea here is to discuss : that is why it is called : Religious Discussions.
And I do not care if you mind or not. That is totally irrelevant.
I react on the posts made here, and I provide my opinion within the greater framework of the question and all related follow-up and background information.

All I want is to discuss here on equal terms, and with full freedom of expression.
Most of what I have seen so far are frustrated and angered Christians who can't accept that this is NOT some second board of Christianity where their views are beyond any scrutiny.

:rolleyes:

·

[Allheart]

Cred, I am actually glad that you are here. You never said you don't believe, just that you want proof.

Stick around and hopefully you will see proof, but not in the way we normally obtain it.

[Credendovidis]

Cred, I am actually glad that you are here. You never said you don't believe, just that you want proof.

As convinced Secular Humanist I do not expect ever to believe in a religious world view. If it were a live or die situation I would become a Buddhist. Because they do not demand that one accepts any supra-natural define entity / deity.

Stick around and hopefully you will see proof, but not in the way we normally obtain it.

Yes for sure, I doubt that, If so it should be! :)
To "see" proof it has to exist, and I sincerely doubt that !

;)

·

[wildandblue]

Well as Jesus said, this generation seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given it, except the sign of Jonah. People in Jesus' day were constantly flocking to him to cure them of every sort of problem. They were missing the point, that this body is passing away, whether it is perfect or not. If He didn't cure them, they didn't want to believe. What good would it do them to be perfectly healthy and wonderfully dressed, etc if they were on the road to destruction? Like He said, better to get to heaven with one good eye than to be cast into Gehenna with two good ones.

[Credendovidis]

Like He said, better to get to heaven with one good eye than to be cast into Gehenna with two good ones.

So.. . And that makes you a mature Christian ?

:D :D :D :D :D

·

[wildandblue]

I don't understand this question. It's not about me, I'm quoting part of the Bible there, and if I was a mature Christian I would hardly be asking questions about how to become one. I'm thinking St. Paul had maturity in mind as some have responded here, living your faith, not just constantly debating about ideas. The Israelites in the wilderness were fed with manna. But they complained that they had to go out and pick it up! Like they thought they should just stand there like a baby bird with it's mouth open and the food would drop in or something. So we must mature, not constantly need milk like a helpless babe.

[De Maria]

That is not true and honest : most of your posts are full of twisting words, sentences, and complete meanings of what was posted earlier.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true Credendo. Prove it. Show where I twisted anyone's words.

lso your posts do not reflect the goal and intention of the Christian mission : "go forth and spread the word" (not only in your words, but specially in your attitude and deeds). You and your attitude on this board have already done more harm to Christianity than an army of angry atheists ever could achieve - if they wanted to do so.

Lol!!

I have faith in God. Not in my words. I am not surprised that you and a great many here. Even many believers get upset by my messages. They also get upset at the Master's messge.

John 15 18 If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.


You and those like you are only upset because I follow Christ and not you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Yes, I would expect you to disregard the teaching of both Jesus and St. Peter and return insults for insults.

Oh, you're just upset because I always prove you wrong. The fact is that you and others like you feel that Christians should be pushovers who don't talk back. But that isn't the case. Neither Jesus nor St. Peter were such.

Although Scripture says we should not render evil for evil, that has nothing to do with debate. That has to do with persecution and affliction. This is the basis of the Just War doctrine. When we are attacked, we defend ourselves, and when God grants us victory, we don't abuse those who lost. We treat them with as much dignity as possible under the circumstances.

In debate, we are called to:

2 Tim 4: 1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

Of course, if I find that the individual with whom I'm speaking isn't worth my effort, I'm called to:

2 Tim 3:1 Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. 2 Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, 3 Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4 Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: 5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.

So, if you ever notice that I'm avoiding a discussion with you, you'll know why.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

DeMaria,

This is exactly what I was trying to communicate to you. How does the above demonstrate a loving follower of Christ.

Easily. I emulate Jesus Christ as closely as possible. You seem to be under the false impression that Jesus Christ never issued a harsh word. You are wrong. Jesus Christ frequently spoke harshly to many:

Read this:
Douay-Rheims Bible, Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 23

Where did you get the impression that Jesus would remain silent in the presence of sin? Do you believe that Jesus' did not admonish the sinners when He dined with them?

Have you not heard:
2 Timothy 1 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but labour with the gospel, according to the power of God, 9 Who hath delivered us and called us by his holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the world. 10 But is now made manifest by the illumination of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath destroyed death, and hath brought to light life and incorruption by the gospel:

This is how the Apostles lived, this is how the Saints lived. They didn't worry about hurting a few people's feelings if it might save their souls.

Any good that may be in your messages, is lost with this type of thinking.

That's not for you to judge. I just plant seeds. It is God who waters. Besides, I've had many who thank me for the message I bring.

I did try to respond to your last PM, but when I hit send, it blinked away. I took it as the will of God. I truly did.

That's fine, but then why did you write this?

There should be no harshness amongst those who believe or even amongst those who don't believe.

Where did you learn that?

1 Corinthians 4 14 I write not these things to confound you; but I admonish you as my dearest children.

Now, I've tried to admonish you that you seem to be approving of the sin of homosexuality. But instead you've taken that as an insult. That is your problem.

Again, as Scripture says:
Ez 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. 8 When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 9 But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way: he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul. 10 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: Thus you have spoken, saying: Our iniquities, and our sins are upon us, and we pine away in them: how then can we live?

Oh I know what you'll say. "Now he's calling me wicked!" That's fine, if you want to take the admonition in that manner, I've done my duty by you. To repeat, in case you've forgotten the message, I've informed you that it is not love to permit people to believe that they may remain in their sin and God will love them still.

You may think I trade the praise of man for being in favor in God's eyes, but as I told you in my PM back to you, that could not be further from the truth. In life, my thoughts, heart, and viewpoints, usually make me stand alone and it's where I choose to stay, for I would not change what I believe in my heart for anyone's approval, except Gods.

If that be so then believe when I tell you that God wants you to help your brethren shed their sin:

James 5 19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: I mean this with all sincerity, I wish you great joy and pray that love touches your heart and surrounds you. 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

May you see the good in people as well as areas that may need improvement and share God's word and love, in a way that will bring others to Him.

Thank you. I pray the same for you.

And may you no longer judge me wrongly and may I not do the same of you.

I don't judge you. I judge your words. As I said in my pm, your message seemed to approve of the sin of homosexuality.

You said, and I quote:

For those of you, who have never been hurt by other's comments - Judge the gay community.

For those of you, who have never felt different, been teased or ridiculed for being different - Point your finger at the gay community and tell them how horrible they are.

For those of you who have never felt overweight, underweight, too tall, too small - Stand up and let your negative voice and opinions be heard in reference to the Gay community.


For those of you, who never felt heartache from not being able to be with the one you love, whose hearts have never been broken - Lash out at the gay community for wanting to love.

But for all of those who know what it feels like to be different, to have your feelings hurt, to feel unloved and wanted by so many - remember that pain - and embrace all that share that pain - black, white, gay, bi, straight, tall, short - your brothers and sisters.

Don't try and stand in God's shoes - they will never fit any of us.

Apparently, you say that because you think I'm too harsh in saying that homosexuality is a mortal sin that will lead people to hell if they persist in it.

I don't believe its harsh at all. I believe it is the truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ordinaryguy]

Oh, you're just upset because I always prove you wrong.

The only thing you've proved is that you have a chip on your shoulder.

The fact is that you and others like you feel that Christians should be pushovers who don't talk back.

I don't "feel that Christians should be" any particular way, and I know that each one interprets Jesus' teachings for himself, just as you have demonstrated. But I will say that I haven't found your degree of belligerence to be typical of "Christians" generally. You're in a class by yourself.

Then again, maybe my friendly and helpful Christian neighbors would be just as argumentative and insulting as you are if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide behind, who knows?
...

So, if you ever notice that I'm avoiding a discussion with you, you'll know why.

I would welcome that, should it ever happen, no matter why.

[De Maria]

The only thing you've proved is that you have a chip on your shoulder.

No, no. I've proved that I knock chips off anti-Christian shoulders. But I have no chip on mine.

I don't "feel that Christians should be" any particular way, and I know that each one interprets Jesus' teachings for himself, just as you have demonstrated.

Actually, no. I interpret Scripture according to the Spirit in which it was written, the culture and times in which it was written and according to Church Tradition. Just as the Church teaches.

It is you who interprets Scripture according to your particular way. Right now, you are simply using Scripture to attempt to prove me wrong. But you are not a person who cares one whit about Scripture, therefore you know nothing about it.

If you had any knowledge of Scripture, you might be able to discuss that intelligently. But instead you just make uninformed accusations. That is your way. You think because you say so, it must be true. But it isn't.

But I will say that I haven't found your degree of belligerence to be typical of "Christians" generally. You're in a class by yourself.

Belligerence?
Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.
Library.thinkquest.org/CR0211900/call/vocabulary_for_chapter_ii.htm

You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive. How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

Do you understand the concept of "Justice"?

Justice is a collective name which can be divided into two broad perspectives. Just behavior; a concern for genuine respect and treatment, which is to be regarded as fair and equal.. .
En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

Or do you believe that nonChristians can insult Christians with impunity? Please tell me, why am I unjust if I defend myself from insult and your antiChristian brethren are not unjust when they insult me and other Christians?

Then again, maybe my friendly and helpful Christian neighbors would be just as argumentative and insulting as you are if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide behind, who knows?

There you go with veiled insults of all Christians.

And maybe my friendly nonChristian neighbors would be just as insulting and aggressive if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide as well.

So what's the point? Are you belligerent towards me and other Christians because you hide behind the internet?

I would welcome that, should it ever happen, no matter why.

That's too bad. So far you haven't crossed that line. And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Allheart]

No, no. I've proved that I knock chips off anti-Christian shoulders. But I have no chip on mine.



Actually, no. I interpret Scripture according to the Spirit in which it was written, the culture and times in which it was written and according to Church Tradition. Just as the Church teaches.

It is you who interprets Scripture according to your particular way. Right now, you are simply using Scripture to attempt to prove me wrong. But you are not a person who cares one whit about Scripture, therefore you know nothing about it.

If you had any knowledge of Scripture, you might be able to discuss that intelligently. But instead you just make uninformed accusations. That is your way. You think because you say so, it must be true. But it isn't.



Belligerence?
Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.
library.thinkquest.org/CR0211900/call/vocabulary_for_chapter_ii.htm

You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive. How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

Do you understand the concept of "Justice"?

Justice is a collective name which can be divided into two broad perspectives. Just behavior; a concern for genuine respect and treatment, which is to be regarded as fair and equal. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

Or do you believe that nonChristians can insult Christians with impunity? Please tell me, why am I unjust if I defend myself from insult and your antiChristian brethren are not unjust when they insult me and other Christians?



There you go with veiled insults of all Christians.

And maybe my friendly nonChristian neighbors would be just as insulting and aggressive if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide as well.

So whats the point? Are you belligerent towards me and other Christians because you hide behind the internet?



Thats too bad. So far you haven't crossed that line. And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,

I honestly was wondering and praying that you were all right as I have not seen you around. I am glad to see you are okay.

But you still get me wrong and I will just share with you that I have God's love in my heart
And I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just wishing you peace.

[ordinaryguy]

Belligerence?
Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.

You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive.

I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about you, specifically, as an individual. Based on your posts on this site, I'd say "Hostile and inclined to be aggressive" is a pretty accurate description.

How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

I feel that they also fall short of the ideals embodied in the teachings of Jesus and St. Peter, but I sympathize with their temptation.

And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

Glad I could be of help.

[De Maria]

I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about you, specifically, as an individual.

I understand that you are referring to me.

Based on your posts on this site, I'd say "Hostile and inclined to be aggressive" is a pretty accurate description.

Show me one of my posts which fits that description which was not in response to a poster who was hostile and aggressive towards Christians or towards me.

I feel that they also fall short of the ideals embodied in the teachings of Jesus and St. Peter, but I sympathize with their temptation.

You don't strike me as person who has ever studied the teachings of Jesus Christ. Much less do you strike me as one who understands their teachings. But that is only to be expected:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Without faith in God, you will not understand the Scriptures.

Glad I could be of help.

You're welcome.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

De Maria,

I honestly was wondering and praying that you were all right as I have not seen you around. I am glad to see you are okay.

I'm fine. Thanks for the concern. FYI, I am usually here one week on and one week off. I'll be leaving for another week soon.

But you still get me wrong

Get you wrong? Do you mean that I misunderstood what you said? Why not clarify it then, just for the record?

and I will just share with you that I have God's love in my heart and I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just wishing you peace.

Peace to you as well Allheart,

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ordinaryguy]

You don't strike me as person who has ever studied the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But I have, and I do.

Much less do you strike me as one who understands their teachings.

I understand them quite differently than you do, that much is clear.

[wildandblue]

If you all could please avoid quoting and requoting each other, it would make this question much shorter and easier to read, especially for people who are interested in the original question and answering it. Maybe you could just use each other's names, like Dear So and So, instead of a few hundred lines of quoted text. Or just use your PM feature.

[N0help4u]

... or pick a point and make a new post.