[paraclete]

and yet the idea of Liberia went ahead

[jlisenbe]

When people are oppressed by their government, it is a natural right they enjoy to relieve themselves of the oppression, if they are strong enough, either by withdrawal from it, or by overthrowing it and substituting a government more acceptable. But any people or part of a people who resort to this remedy, stake their lives, their property, and every claim for protection given by citizenship—on the issue. Victory, or the conditions imposed by the conqueror—must be the result.

So might makes right?

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: I think, more accurately, WINNERS make RIGHT: Adolf Hitler said that "Victors write the history": If you choose to throw off tyrannical rule by force and win that struggle, consequences are good...if you engage that struggle and lose, the rulers will impose punishment.

[tomder55]

yes often might does make right so to speak . In this case there was the added benefit that the union was on the morally right side of the conflict .

[jlisenbe]

I'd put it this way. Might makes winners. Are the winners always morally right? Hardly.

[talaniman]

and yet the idea of Liberia went ahead

That idea started in the late 1700's, and was another white man solution that was well intentioned by some, but a very agenda driven endeavor by others.

President Abraham Lincoln

still believed at this late date

that voluntary colonization should go hand-in-hand with emancipation because he thought black and white people couldn’t live equally in the same country. Later in the war, however, Lincoln abandoned the idea of colonization and publicly supported black men gaining the right to vote.

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: I think that not much is remembered of one Marcus Garvey...but I remember him: He was a pretty forward thinking Black man who was a leader in Black nationalism and in an era that predates MLK, albeit he was somewhat controversial....he was also quite a statesman who promoted a return of Blacks to their continent of origin: he is very interesting reading, if you have the opportunity. He said: "A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin, and culture is like a tree without roots." I won't call him a radical because he wasn't that at all, in my opinion. His primary observations were that progress couldn't not be made by anyone other than Blacks themselves and he didn't play the blame game at all.

[talaniman]

He was a separatist and so agreed with separatists policies and ideas. I suppose for the times he was relevant in some ways, but certainly inspired the launching of many others to get more actively involved in the struggle on many fronts. Black History Month got a bit drowned out this year with other current events and this election, so thanks for bringing that up, and as a black guy, we raised our kids to take voting very seriously, and never fall for the tricks and traps to make that vote not count.

Vac, let's separate legit concerns and complaints from the blame game stuff, because it's far to easy to dismiss what concerns a minority as frivolous beetch to get free stuff. An effective ploy to scare you white folks and it's as effective now as ever when it comes to getting that "scared of minorities" vote. Repubs are energized and inspired to vote, so must the dems be, plain and simple. Everywhere. We got the dufus because of dems not voting everywhere and we will get more of him if we repeat that MISTAKE!

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: I don't like to see "a people" led around as a "herd": to me, a "herd mentality" is purely a submissive mentality...and I don't care what the "herd" is or what it is made up of...at their lowest common denominator, herds are made of individuals: Individuals should "think as individuals" and not a group: Groups are great when we are trying to accomplish "BIG PROJECTS" (i.e. Engineering a dam construction, raising and orchestrating and Army for an invasion, running a Corporation or a manufacturing plant, trying to elect a POTUS)...but, at some point, outside of the military, everyone goes home at night and, in the solitude of their own minds, every person should discard their "Group Think" and think for themselves: If we don't think for ourselves, we will never be able to recognize when we are being led merrily down the old proverbial "Garden Path"....and this is advisable as much to Caucasians as it Blacks, as it is to Republicans as it is Democrats, and as it is to Libertarians as it is John Birchers. NO ONE SHOULD BE CONTROLLED BY ANYONE, to abdicate your capacity to think and act as an individual is to is to give up your freedom: By doing this, you cheapen the very principles upon which this nation was founded....We were designed, as human beings, to exercise our abilities to think, reason, and act independent of others.

[jlisenbe]

It would be an amazing thing to see 20% or 30% of the black vote go to Trump this year if for no other reason than to break the dems seeming possession of black voters. With black unemployment at record low levels, it would certainly be a logical move.

[talaniman]

Talaniman: I don't like to see "a people" led around as a "herd": to me, a "herd mentality" is purely a submissive mentality...and I don't care what the "herd" is or what it is made up of...at their lowest common denominator, herds are made of individuals: Individuals should "think as individuals" and not a group: Groups are great when we are trying to accomplish "BIG PROJECTS" (i.e. Engineering a dam construction, raising and orchestrating and Army for an invasion, running a Corporation or a manufacturing plant, trying to elect a POTUS)...but, at some point, outside of the military, everyone goes home at night and, in the solitude of their own minds, every person should discard their "Group Think" and think for themselves: If we don't think for ourselves, we will never be able to recognize when we are being led merrily down the old proverbial "Garden Path"....and this is advisable as much to Caucasians as it Blacks, as it is to Republicans as it is Democrats, and as it is to Libertarians as it is John Birchers. NO ONE SHOULD BE CONTROLLED BY ANYONE, to abdicate your capacity to think and act as an individual is to is to give up your freedom: By doing this, you cheapen the very principles upon which this nation was founded....We were designed, as human beings, to exercise our abilities to think, reason, and act independent of others.

When there are two choices, which we will have at the end of the primary process, then you go one way or another. It's that simple other than the state and local stuff.

[paraclete]

It is the beginning of the process and you are down to two choices, soon there will be just one and all the hoha will have been for nothing, very inefficient

[talaniman]

It would be an amazing thing to see 20% or 30% of the black vote go to Trump this year if for no other reason than to break the dems seeming possession of black voters. With black unemployment at record low levels, it would certainly be a logical move.

Thems some long odds partner, and I wouldn't hold my breath, because I doubt many minorities feel the repubs and especially not the dufus has earned that respect to follow this party. The dems don't have possession of black voters, black voters have possession of the dem party. Until you understand how that dynamic works, I suggest you keep your expectations a lot more realistic.

[talaniman]

It is the beginning of the process and you are down to two choices, soon there will be just one and all the hoha will have been for nothing, very inefficient

One person, one vote, and that's the way we like it. Few can see the smaller groups that make up the two parties but we recognize those coalitions Clete. Heck there are more independent voters than there are in either party.

I know you don't think much of our system, but I keep reminding you there are a lot more of us, than you have down under.

[jlisenbe]

The dems don't have possession of black voters, black voters have possession of the dem party.

Yeah. I'm sure that's right.

[paraclete]

I know you don't think much of our system, but I keep reminding you there are a lot more of us, than you have down under.

Size doesn't matter, it is not an excuse for inefficiency, and is it democracy that, in effect, a few states actually select the candidate while the rest of the nation watches

[talaniman]

Size doesn't matter, it is not an excuse for inefficiency, and is it democracy that, in effect, a few states actually select the candidate while the rest of the nation watches

Seems that way to the uniformed, but demographics and turnouts as well as population distribution has a good deal to do with outcomes and yesterdays swing states may change tomorrow. The winning combinations of states are not set in stone, and the swing states mean noting without the other states. Pray tell how we could be more efficient my Aussie friend with the bias?

[paraclete]

Seems that way to the uniformed, but demographics and turnouts as well as population distribution has a good deal to do with outcomes and yesterdays swing states may change tomorrow. The winning combinations of states are not set in stone, and the swing states mean noting without the other states. Pray tell how we could be more efficient my Aussie friend with the bias?

Well you could hold the ballots on the one day or over one week so it is all wrapped up quickly and the whole nation is heard from. You named your nation the United States but in reality it is a collection of fiefdoms

[jlisenbe]

You named your nation the United States but in reality it is a collection of fiefdoms

If you believe that, then you don't know what a fiefdom is.

[talaniman]

A duly and lawfully elected fiefdom for sure Clete, under one set of rules that apply to all those fiefdoms. Like your own system, and though we stretch it out in the name of fairness to those fiefdoms, it still comes down to ballots cast on the specified day that the nation AND states can be heard from. Over here we just give ALL the candidates a fair chance to be heard too, and the citizens time to consider what they have heard and weigh in. Don't you do that there? Size does matter, when you respect that everybody should be heard from, and there are so many voices that have the same rights.

I often don't understand your criticism of our system Clete, since it serves us well, as yours serves you well, and are not both a works in progress subject to change with the times and circumstances? Hey you think its an easy thing to organize so many people with differing ideas and views, languages and cultures into a functioning nation?

We ain't perfect, but we are trying to be better. Messy as that is look around, whose the biggest dog on the planet bar NONE? You let me know when you can do as we have done and still GROW. Your criticisms and biases are duly noted though, and forgive my own bias ego and national pride.