[adam7gur]

So, are you saying that the NT is wrong?

Heb 10:4-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV



Are you saying that Jesus died in vain and that the blood of animals could take away sins?

Let me suggest that it was not the blood of the animals that took away sins, but the blood of Jesus on the cross, applied to them for their faithfulness looking forward to His coming. there was ever only one way to be saved.

Again twisting words and Scripture!That is not a good spirit you demonstrate here and may the Lord Jesus deliever us (you too)from its presenceWhere did I say that the NT is not valid?
But you seem to draw a line and delete the OT and therefore condemn OT people for doing what OT instructed!
If I have to drive for 10 miles and I am at the 9th, do I delete the previous 8 ? Don't you know that it was the previous 8 miles that brought you to the 9th?
So are you calling God a liar?Because He is the one that said.. ''it shall be forgiven''!
Do not judge OT people with NT knowledge!
Are the children of Adam and Eve guilty for sleeping together and having kids?How could they know that hounderds of years later God would stop it?
Were they not under grace??
Do not think that only Jesus in a literall way is grace!Everything that comes out of God is grace!
God is the one that said that OT people should circumsize.Did they sin just because in the NT that is not required any more?Or do you doubt that it was God's law?
When something changes that does not automatically mean that what we did till that time was wrong!We did not always have cars!Does this mean that riding horses was not good?
But what you say is without grace at all!This should make you think about your faith!

[adam7gur]

God did not tell them to choose those two men, nor to use lots. It was their decision, and they therefore were setting the rules.

Absolutely not! You know Scripture and you keep twisting it!

[adam7gur]

And if there were only 12 at the end of time, then that means 12.

Of course there were others spoken of in Revelation as being false Apostles,

Rev 2:1-3
2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
NKJV

but only 12 Apostles of the Lamb. I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles.

I was not talking about false apostles!Again twisting words by your side!

[homesell]

adam7gur and TJ3,
Your passion leaps from your words and I wonder why on such an irrelevant subject. There are many more important things. We are almost doing the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" thing... it doesn't matter. We are splitting hairs over what being "appointed directly by Jesus" means. Both sides have legitimate biblical positions so let us not waste time accusing each other of "twisting scripture" or even not believing the Bible. Both sides fully believe(as I do) that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Everybody gets something different from reading the same words of God as God touches us each in a different and personal way. I am pleading with you my brothers to end this petty thread and answer some important questions.

[adam7gur]

adam7gur and TJ3,
Your passion leaps from your words and I wonder why on such an irrelevant subject. There are many more important things. We are almost doing the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" thing...it doesn't matter. We are splitting hairs over what being "appointed directly by Jesus" means. Both sides have legitimate biblical positions so let us not waste time accusing each other of "twisting scripture" or even not believing the Bible. Both sides fully believe(as I do) that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Everybody gets something different from reading the same words of God as God touches us each in a different and personal way. I am pleading with you my brothers to end this petty thread and answer some important questions.

Jeff!
Thank you for your honest advice.
It is Tom's attitude and I repeat Tom's attitude and not Tom himself that brought many of us to a point like this one.
I would gladly end it right here but be very sure that the same thing will happen about another thread really soon!
Of course anyone can express his/hers different opinion,but this spirit is nothing about expressing , it is about twisting things the other way, it is not a spirit of grace or mercy.It is a spirit of a whip on a believer's back and that is not fair!That is not what Christ taught us and personally I don't like that kind of a spirit dwelling among believers.
As I wrote earlier as we go deeper in this , we go deeper in our hearts.May what we have in our hearts come out to the Lord's light and may the Lord Jesus Christ seal His own!
By the way we judge , we are also judged

[Tj3]

Absolutely not! You know Scripture and you keep twisting it!

It is Tom's attitude and I repeat Tom's attitude and not Tom himself that brought many of us to a point like this one.

Adam,

This thread is not about false accusations nor abusive comments about the individuals involved. If you disagree with what I am saying, then deal with the issue and let's stay off the person comments, shall we? Whether I agree with you or not, I accept that you are sincere in presenting what you believe, so please accord others the same respect.

[Tj3]

Yes, but he did not spend not even one single day with Jesus from His baptism , and that's something that all the rest did!
Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Do you still believe that Matthias did not see the risen Lord?

So, are you saying that Jesus made the wrong call and the 11 made the right call?

[Tj3]

I was not talking about false apostles!Again twisting words by your side!

Nor did I say that you were. But the fact remains that, other than Jesus, those are the only Apostles mentioned in scripture outside of the 12. That is why I mentioned it.

Nor am I saying that Matthias was in any way a false leader. He was no doubt a godly man and a capable Christian leader, or he would not have been considered for the role of an Apostle - but that does not mean that he was the right choice. It is interesting that we never hear anything of him again after that.

Again twisting words and Scripture!That is not a good spirit you demonstrate here and may the Lord Jesus deliever us (you too)from its presenceWhere did I say that the NT is not valid?

I never said that you did. What I said was that if you are holding to there being a different means of atonement in the OT, then that would mean that scripture is wrong in the book of Hebrews. Thus my question.

But you seem to draw a line and delete the OT and therefore condemn OT people for doing what OT instructed!

No that is not true. I draw no different a line than what Jesus and Paul did.

Matt 5:17-19
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
NKJV

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV

Does that sound like the law is made for believers?

Gal 3:21-25
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

This is the line that they drew. The law is not done away with, but it is prophetic of the coming of Christ and through Christ, much of what we see in the law and the OT rituals has been fulfilled (the passover for example). But the law was a mirror to show us how much we failed to live up to thye standard that God set for us, and in so doing make us aware of the need of a Saviour, who is Jesus Christ. And once we have received Jesus, we no longer have need of that tutor to bring us to Him, because we have Him. And it is through Him that we can be righteous, not our own righteousness but the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to believers. That is why we are no longer under the law.

Does this mean that we can do whatever we wish? Absolutely not.

Rom 6:1-3
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV

Once saved, we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which acts as our guide, to help us live to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law.

Do I or scripture condemn the OT people for doing these rituals? Absolutely not nor did I say such a thing. What I am saying is that the people ion the OT looked forward to the coming of their Messiah, for example:

Job 19:25-26
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
NKJV

Heb 11:23-27
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
NKJV

So those in the OT were obedient to God in carrying out rituals which were prophetic of the true source of their salvation, Jesus.

[Tj3]

adam7gur and TJ3,
Your passion leaps from your words and I wonder why on such an irrelevant subject. There are many more important things. We are almost doing the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" thing...it doesn't matter. We are splitting hairs over what being "appointed directly by Jesus" means. Both sides have legitimate biblical positions so let us not waste time accusing each other of "twisting scripture" or even not believing the Bible. Both sides fully believe(as I do) that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Everybody gets something different from reading the same words of God as God touches us each in a different and personal way. I am pleading with you my brothers to end this petty thread and answer some important questions.

Jeff,

I hear what you are saying. Let me explain why I feel passionate about this one. In the area of ministry that I am involved in, I find that I often heal with people or churches within what is considered orthodox Christianity who argue for now just more than 12 Apostles, but argue for Apostles today in the churches. Many of these are men who have used this titled wrongly claimed to claim power and authority in churches that they do not have for reasons of control, and in some cases have become outright abusive of said assumed authority. This issue is becoming more widespread all the time, probably more so than many people realize.

Matthias in an of itself is an interesting point, but far too often, this is a starting point when people want to claim, not 13 Apostles, but then expand it further. It is therefore important for the protection of churches and for those in the churches to ensure that people are aware what scripture says on this matter.

I am however agreeable to having the thread closed if someone wishes to request that that happen. Once we get into the personal accusation stage of a thread, that is often the first signs that it is time to close the thread.

[arcura]

adam7gur,
I believe that Matthias did see the risen Lord,
I have every time I go to Mass.
Fred

[adam7gur]

So, are you saying that Jesus made the wrong call and the 11 made the right call?

Tom
You are creating dillemas out of nothing.Jesus did choose Paul to be His apostle.Does this make him one of the twelve that companied Him from His baptism till the day He was taken up?No,Paul was nowhere around that time.Does this make him not His apostle?Surely not!Of course Paul is His apostle.Do you see Jesus telling Paul that he is going to be one of the twelve?No!Jesus says that Paul will be His apostle.I don't see Jesus saying anything more to that!
What Jesus said to Paul He could also tell you today.He could send you somewhere for His name.Does this make you an apostle?Yes it does!Does this make you one of the twelve?No it does not!
Peter says Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Imagine this!Those two men companied Jesus all the time.Wherever He went , they also went.Don't you think that Jesus somehow chose them even if we do not see this literally happening?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you honestly believe that Matthias is not included in ''them'' He also called and do you honestly still not believe that Matthias was not chosen by Jesus?

[arcura]

adam7gur,
Your point is well made AND WELL SAID.
Paul was made the apostle to the gentiles, number thirteen but not one of the twelve.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

Originally Posted by adam7gur
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


You said ''I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles.''
And I said ''I was not talking about false apostles!Again twisting words by your side!''
And you replied ''Nor did I say that you were.''
But Tom , by saying ''I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles'' means that I was talking about false apostles.
That is twisting words and I will not be silent about it just as the Lord was not silent about it!
Now, after my statement of not liking your spirit of twisting you try to hide behind '' a kind attitude'' and respecting others but I do not believe you.You can prove me wrong in the future, take it as a challenge. I 'll be around to see if you mean what you say or if you continue to twist words.
I imagine this thread will soon be closed, I do apologize for this but there comes a time that I believe that one has to discern the spirits and not compromise with what is not from above!

[adam7gur]

Originally Posted by adam7gur
Again twisting words and Scripture!That is not a good spirit you demonstrate here and may the Lord Jesus deliever us (you too)from its presenceWhere did I say that the NT is not valid?
Tom , you said
I never said that you did. What I said was that if you are holding to there being a different means of atonement in the OT, then that would mean that scripture is wrong in the book of Hebrews. Thus my question.

I keep telling you that the OT is the OT and the NT is the NT.
People under the OT were obligated to keep the law , casting lots was instructed by God in the law.
The NT changed things into a more mature level.Does this mean that a baby was not doing well for being fed only with milk?
Can you judge this newborn as you judge a grown up?Just because you as a grown up eat meat , do you expect newborns to eat meat also?
I gave you so many examples , still you keep on judging them wrong!
If I say that the OT is a newborn , does this mean that I find wrong the NT? Why asking me this after all that I wrote?
You are smart enough to ask me things like that.But you are not waiting for an answear , your point is only to twist words!

[Tj3]

Tom
You are creating dillemas out of nothing.Jesus did choose Paul to be His apostle.

Good. And since there are only 12, that makes Paul the 12th.

Does this make him one of the twelve that companied Him from His baptism till the day He was taken up?

But that is also not given as a requirement to be an apostle, but rather that was chosen by the 11 as the set from which they would draw their candidates.

Imagine this!Those two men companied Jesus all the time.Wherever He went , they also went.Don't you think that Jesus somehow chose them even if we do not see this literally happening?

When you look at the other chosen as Apostles, no doubt if you looked at them before Jesus chose them, you would likely have considered them as unworthy candidates or at least less acceptable candidates than, perhaps some leaders in the local synagogues. But God's criteria is not ours - He looks ahead to thiongs that we cannot see or know, and He looks at the heart.

What we do know is that He chose Paul. That ought to be enough to say that paul was fully qualified.

Do you honestly believe that Matthias is not included in ''them'' He also called and do you honestly still not believe that Matthias was not chosen by Jesus?

Yes. If you disagree, show me where Jesus directly and personally called him.

[Tj3]

Originally Posted by adam7gur
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?

Do you know when that New Jersusalem comes down? It is at the end of history. Do you think that God omitted names?

You said ''I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles.''
And I said ''I was not talking about false apostles!Again twisting words by your side!''
And you replied ''Nor did I say that you were.''
But Tom , by saying ''I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles'' means that I was talking about false apostles.

Well, weren't we? If we go beyond the 12, we have only the false Apostles identified in scripture, as well as 1 special case, and that is where scripture says that now Jesus is The Apostle of our faith.

That is twisting words and I will not be silent about it just as the Lord was not silent about it!

If you are concerned about twisting words, then please stop the practice and lets discuss the topic.

[Tj3]

What I said was that if you are holding to there being a different means of atonement in the OT, then that would mean that scripture is wrong in the book of Hebrews. Thus my question.

I keep telling you that the OT is the OT and the NT is the NT.
People under the OT were obligated to keep the law , casting lots was instructed by God in the law.

But the point is that NO ONE was saved by the law or keeping the rituals. The NT tells us that specifically.

You are smart enough to ask me things like that.But you are not waiting for an answear , your point is only to twist words!

I have seen many times that you directly twisted what I said, and yet you seem to have no problem with that.I, however, never said that you said what you clsimed that I did - that alone is twisting my words. BTW, I think that it is interesting that the only two posts were you don't use the quote feature is where you take my comments out of context to make such accusations. I would suggest that in the future, if you wis to suggest that I said something, that you provide the proper quote in context.

Now, please deal with the issue and stop making false accusations. I get the impression that you want to get this thread closed.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Matthias was apostle number twelve taking the place of Judas.
Paul was apostle number 13 and neither one were false.
Since the there have been thousands of apostles as history records.
I know you don't believe that but your believe does NOT change the facts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Matthias was apostle number twelve taking the place of Judas.

That is your claim.

Paul was apostle number 13

Scripture says that there were only 12 - apparently you disagree.

and neither one were false.
Since the there have been thousands of apostles as history records.

Some of the additional ones were exposed by the church at Ephesus (Rev 2:2).
I am not so impressed by historians telling me who is and is not an Apostle, as I am by Jesus telling who is an Apostle.

Each of us must decide which sources to consider legitimate, and I am satisfied with God's word.

[arcura]

Tj3,
It is what I read in the holy bible.
I have 8 different versions and they all agree on that.
Fred