[arcura]

Yj3,
Not at all. That is Not what he said, nor do I say we can force God to do anything.
You know better than that so why make such a silly statement?
Fred

[adam7gur]

Quite the contrary - scripture is clear that those in the OT were saved through their faith in the coming Messiah and had their sins washed by the blood on the cross. God is outside of time and not limited by our timeline. the rituals and symbolic sacrifices in the OT were prophetic of the coming of Christ.

You cannot put OT people in the same jar with us today!
They were under the law, we are not.The law was very clear for every little detail of their lives.As for sins in the OT let's see what the law says...

Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

God's Son was not incarnated at that time,and His sacrifise was about to take place centuries later.Yes God is beyond time but we are not.
I can last much longer without food than my 22 months old son.Does this mean ,that my son has to wait until I get hungry so that he has his meal?
He who has power , blesses the one who is weak!

[adam7gur]

Please do not put words in my mouth. Scripture is clear that we live b y the spirit not the letter. Jesus gives a explanation of how the spirit and the letter differ in Matthew 5. the fact that we are not under the law does not give us leeway to sin. But likewise, living by the law will not save you. The law only serves the one purpose and that is to show us har much we have missed the mark, and hiow futile it is to try to be saved through the law. Thus it points us to Christ.

Note that scripture also says that if you have failed to live up to even one point of the law, you are guilty of failing to abide by ALL of the law. So trying to do the best you can will not be good enough for your salvation. There is no way to be saved but through Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

How easy it is for us to say all those things, now that Christ is revealed, but imagine us living in OT times.Imagine us being in their place.I doubt if we would be able to make it better than they did!
Of course now we play smart , now that all the answears are in front of us,but they did not have that privillege.
Those people heard God telling them that they should sacrifise , so that they could be forgiven.Do you realize how difficult it was for them to go beyond the law and understand Christ?
Of course we who never were under the law, say great things about Christ's sacrifise,but let's try to get into their position for a second!
You are judging those people by cretiria that are not suitable and right for them.
It is like judging me for not circumsizing my flesh! You cannot judge me under those rules 'cause I was never under those rules.
It is like whistling a three pointer in a soccer game.What kind of a judge would that be?

[adam7gur]

It was not endorsed by God for anything other than the specifics given in scripture. the fact that soem people may have gone beyond that does not mean that it was endorsed by God, nor that it was His will or His direction that came of their use of it.

God is not obliged to live by our rules and to do our bidding.

You got it totally wrong.
It was the apostles that by casting lots , lived by God's rules and not the opposite.
There is a saying...
You don't leave it on chance when you leave it on God!

[adam7gur]

Rev 21:14.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[adam7gur]

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The city has twelve foundations.What is a foundation? It is a rock that you build upon.
And Jesus said to Peter Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Do you think that Jesus is talking literally here to Peter?Is Peter himself a stone that the church is built upon or is it his testimony that Jesus is the Son of God?
That testimony is the rock, the foundation of the wall of the city that is mentioned in Revelation.
The number twelve symbolizes the ''whole'',just like the twelve tribes of Israel.
The twelve names of the foundations are the names of all of us, and not just the literally twelve.
The names of all of us are in those foundations, that's what twelve stands for!

[adam7gur]

As we go deeper into this, we go deeper in our hearts and whatever is hidden in our hearts will come to light.
May the Lord Jesus bring into the light of His rightouesness, whatever we have in our hearts and let Him choose between me and you!Amen!

[Tj3]

Yj3,
Not at all. That is Not what he said, nor do I say we can force God to do anything.
You know better than that so why make such a silly statement?
Fred

I said it because you were suggesting it. If casting of lots is not an infallible way to make decisions, then neither can we say that the lost cast for Matthias were an indication that it was God's will.

[Tj3]

You got it totally wrong.
It was the apostles that by casting lots , lived by God's rules and not the opposite.
There is a saying ...
You don't leave it on chance when you leave it on God!

God did not tell them to choose those two men, nor to use lots. It was their decision, and they therefore were setting the rules.

[Tj3]

You cannot put OT people in the same jar with us today!
They were under the law, we are not.The law was very clear for every little detail of their lives.As for sins in the OT let's see what the law says...

Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

God's Son was not incarnated at that time,and His sacrifise was about to take place centuries later.Yes God is beyond time but we are not.
I can last much longer without food than my 22 months old son.Does this mean ,that my son has to wait until I get hungry so that he has his meal?
He who has power , blesses the one who is weak!

So, are you saying that the NT is wrong?

Heb 10:4-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

Are you saying that Jesus died in vain and that the blood of animals could take away sins?

Let me suggest that it was not the blood of the animals that took away sins, but the blood of Jesus on the cross, applied to them for their faithfulness looking forward to His coming. There was ever only one way to be saved.

[Tj3]

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

And if there were only 12 at the end of time, then that means 12.

Of course there were others spoken of in Revelation as being false Apostles,

Rev 2:1-3
2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
NKJV

But only 12 Apostles of the Lamb. I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles.

[classyT]

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord... and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

[Tj3]

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord....and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

From what I have read in scripture, I would suggest that the requirements would be:

1) The requirements for that of a bishop or deacon as found in 1 Tim 3, and in Titus 1:7.

2) Must have been a witness of the risen Lord.

3) Be personally chosen by Jesus.

[arcura]

Tj3,
The apostles cast lots to get God's help in whom select.
Keep in mind that they were people who had lived in OT times and were very used to the OT law and what was done then so it was natural for them to cast lots and ask for God's help.
Adam is very right about that.
As has been stated I will believe as I want to and you can do the same.
I know you do not believe in the apostolic succession that has been going on since the book of acts, but I do.
Jesus is with the apostles of His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
The apostles cast lots to get God's help in whom select.

That, no doubt, was the intent. But God is not obliged to do what men tell Him to do, or to do things in the timing and methodology decided by men.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I do believe that God did help them and so they had a new apostle brother.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I do believe that God did help them and so they had a new apostle brother.
Fred

You are welcome to believe that regardless of what scripture actually says.

[arcura]

Th3,
Thanks!
I WILL believe as I want to and I do agree with what scripture says, but not the way you interpret it.
Fred

[Tj3]

Back to the topic...

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord....and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

From what I have read in scripture, I would suggest that the requirements would be:

1) The requirements for that of a bishop or deacon as found in 1 Tim 3, and in Titus 1:7.

2) Must have been a witness of the risen Lord.

3) Be personally chosen by Jesus.

[adam7gur]

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord....and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

Yes, but he did not spend not even one single day with Jesus from His baptism , and that's something that all the rest did!
Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Do you still believe that Matthias did not see the risen Lord?