[tomder55]

What is national suicide is leaving the system as it is .Medicare, in its current form, is unsustainable and must change.

But why wasn't the gutting of Medicare funding by Obama an act of electoral suicide ? Why wasn't reducing it's funding by over $700 billion the equivant of throwing grandma over the cliff?
The question is choice. Ryan's plan would give future seniors vouchers to purchase private insurance while slowing growing costs in Medicare. Obama's plan is tied to Obamacare .It sets up a panel of experts to propose cuts to make Medicare spending more manageable.The cuts would target providers . But already more and more doctors are not taking new Medicare patients because of the compensation issues.Obama changes Medicare(as we know it) . His plan relies on government rationing.

The Ryan /Wyden plan is about choice. New participants will have the choice to enter the dinosaur 1965 system if they want to ,or to join a competitive bidding plan.

Bottom line ;even the most optimistic predictions have the whole system collapsing in a decade (most predictions are within this decade ). Anyone who thinks Medicare is not going to be 'changed as we know it " is fooling themselves.

[paraclete]

It seems Tom your whole health care system needs a radical rethink, right now it is nothing but a political football. Whenever you speak about these things you speak about costs but do nothing to control the costs at source, the runaway costs imposed by the medical profession and the drug companies. There is nothing else for it you will just have to stop people living longer, what will happen to you if your life expectancy becomes as high as ours.

[Wondergirl]

What is national suicide is leaving the system as it is. Medicare, in its current form, is unsustainable and must change.

Medicare is fine. What has to change is drug companies and hospitals bleeding it dry.

[tomder55]

That's the problem for the short term. The longer term problem is demographics . Us Baby boomers ,who are now becoming eligible at ever greater numbers have not replaced the population. The ratio of system users to people paying for the system continues to shrink . Very soon ,the system will be unsustainable.
The hard facts is that there are roughly 60 million people drawing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid ;and another 50 million Medicaid recipients for a total of 110 million people drawing from those entitlements.There are only 115 million full-time jobs in the U.S. So we are getting close to a 1:1 ratio of worker to entitlement recipient . With the system paying out about 10 times more per person than it collects in taxes... That would mean we would need about a 10-1 ratio of worker to recipient to make it sustainable .Draconian reductions in services and compensation reductions would make it closer no doubt . Bust as I already mentioned; servers are dropping out already because of the compensation issue.

It probably would've been closer to sustainable had it actually been managed as advertised ,with trust funds properly managed . But the trust funds are a criminal farce. Both SS and Medicare are currently pay-as you-go systems.

[paraclete]

There is an answer Tom let in all those immigrants, have a sustained population explosion and you solve two problems, you automatically become a low cost country and the taxes can pay the benefits. I knew If I thought about it long enough I would find a solution for you. You see, Tom, you really have to think left field on this one. This one solves the foreign policy problem too, no fence, and well, no worries about China, they will be able to buy from you

Hasta la vista baby

vihja con Dios

[tomder55]

I have absolutely no problem with LEGAL immigration. It is our generation that has dropped the ball with killing off muti-millions of future supporters of the entitlement system.

[tomder55]

By the way... The Dems tried the Mediscare tactic in 2010 . They got trounced . Glad to see they've learned their lesson.

[speechlesstx]

Medicare is fine. What has to change is drug companies and hospitals bleeding it dry.

Medicare is nort fine, it has about a 12 year lifespan right now, and Obama is using it as piggy bank for Obamacare. Besides what he's already cut out of Medicare, $741 billion now according to the CBO, his completely unaccountable Independent Payment Advisory Board is going to cut Medicare payments thereby rationing healthcare for seniors even further. Obama is throwing granny over the cliff, Ryan is trying to save her.

[talaniman]

LOL, talk about lies, Obama took money from medicare, but from the supply side, not the benefits, but Romney does the same thing, but gives it to rich guys. He may not throw granny under the bus, but her grandkids and kids are toast. NOBODY want the vouchers, and the system is SOLVENT to 2024.

We know the reason for all the right wing cuts, its to support more corporate welfare, so they can hide more money and open sweat shops overseas. I doubt seriously that the country goes along with the right wing plans.

[Wondergirl]

Medicare is nort fine, it has about a 12 year lifespan right now

Who stole the trust fund?

[talaniman]

The guys holding the bags of loot running for the hills!

[excon]

Medicare is nort fine, it has about a 12 year lifespan right now,

Hello again, Steve:

As a businessman, if I'm overpaying for a necessary service that I provide, I don't END the service.. I FIX it.. Certainly if we keep overspending on Medicare, it won't last.. But, if we fixed the COSTS it would last FOREVER..

Romney said a little something that has gone unnoticed by everyone, but ME... When he was in Israel, he mentioned how they were able to get soooo much BANG for their medical buck... And, that was it.. He really didn't wonder TOO long..

But, if we can do what the Israeli's did, (and I don't see why we can't), Medicare would last FOREVER.. So, it's a POLITICAL problem - NOT a fiscal problem.. We just need to remove the people STANDING in the way.

excon

[talaniman]

I heard that too ex, and everybody gets more bang for their buck, and better outcomes. Wonder why?

Single payer, and strict rules and regulations, MANDATED PARTICIPATION?? No Republican Party?

[tomder55]

What none mention is the problems in the Israeli system. It is inequitable in that there is better health care in the urban areas than in the rural areas... that there is a shortage of doctors and health care providers... and that the system is underfunded despite the fact that Israelis pay higher taxes ,and the system is universal .
Now multiply those problems by 40x and you would see that it is not necessarily true that their system would work here.
On the positive side ;their system is NOT single payer as you recognize it . It works better than most because there is market-style competition. Each citizen chooses from four non-governmental providers, called a 'kupat cholim' .These providers are required to provide basic services but they compete for customers and customers shop for the best deal.

[speechlesstx]

LOL, talk about lies, Obama took money from medicare, but from the supply side, not the benefits,

Please feel free to document whatever the heck it is you're trying to say here.

but Romney does the same thing, but gives it to rich guys. He may not throw granny under the bus, but her grandkids and kids are toast. NOBODY want the vouchers, and the system is SOLVENT to 2024.

Or in other words, it goes INSOLVENT in 12 years, but that's OK, I understand progressives are mathematically challenged.

We know the reason for all the right wing cuts, its to support more corporate welfare, so they can hide more money and open sweat shops overseas. I doubt seriously that the country goes along with the right wing plans.

You really need another line of attack, this one's beyond stale. Americans want jobs, Obama just gives us more stagnation and national debt.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

As a businessman, if I'm overpaying for a necessary service that I provide, I don't END the service..

I repeat, the left-leaning Politifact 2011 lie of the year is the Ryan plan ends Medicare.

Lie of the Year 2011: 'Republicans voted to end Medicare'

I repeat again, after complaints Ryan worked with a Democrat from Oregon to hash out a compromise plan. But keep on lying, that's all you apparently have.

[speechlesstx]

I think The Onion has you guys pegged again...

(edited for profanity)

Admit It, I Scare The Ever-Loving S**t Out Of You, Don't I?

By Paul Ryan
Candidate for Vice President of the United States
August 13, 2012 | ISSUE 48•33

When Mitt Romney selected me as his running mate, I knew the Democratic attack dogs would come out in full force. They would say I’m a right-wing ideologue. They would say my views on entitlement programs are far too radical. They would say putting me on the ticket immediately kills Mitt Romney’s chances of becoming president because I’m a liability. But if we’re being honest with each other—if we’re able to put aside the talking points for a few minutes and say what we’re all actually thinking and feeling—I believe we can acknowledge the real truth here.

I’m young, I’m handsome, I’m smart, and I’m articulate. And that scares the ever-loving s**t out of you. You can pretend like you have this thing in the bag, but you know good g*****n well that this race just got real interesting, real fast.

It’s okay to admit it. You’re frightened to death of me. It might actually be healthy for you to face your fears now rather than later, when Mitt and I are leading by a few points in the polls and it looks like this thing might end badly for you. Face it: I’m not some catastrophe waiting to happen, like a Sarah Palin or a Dan Quayle. On the contrary, you have the exact opposite fear. I’m a solid, competent, some might say exceptional, politician.

Did you get nervous when you read that last sentence? Is it because you know in your heart of hearts that it’s 100 percent true? Is it because, even if you strongly disagree with my beliefs on Medicare, Social Security, women’s rights, and marriage equality, you know my talent as a speaker and my well-thought-out approach to these issues—no matter how radical and convoluted you find them—might just be enough to win over independent voters?

Do you get chills just thinking about how strong my appeal actually is?

I have another question for you: How scared are you that I can convince people I’m right? Because I’m good at it. No, I’m really good at it. You see, I know how to turn up the charm and charisma without putting people off. Then I back up what I’m saying with arguments that, when they come out of my mouth, sound completely accurate and well-reasoned. And I do it with such passion that people automatically recognize me as a man with deep convictions he will stand up for, no matter what.

The American people love that s**t. They love it.

Passion, intellect, and a magnetic personality. Pretty damn intimidating combo, if I say so myself. You want to talk about polish? Man, I’ve got polish for miles. Oh, and by the way, I’ll say this next thing because, if we’re being honest, why the hell not, right? In case you haven’t noticed, I’m white. Hoo, brother, am I white.

Yup, you should be scared s**tless of me, because guess who isn’t? The people of Wisconsin. They love me. Republicans and Democrats there love me. Hell, I get Democrats to vote for me even if my policies make zero sense when it comes to their livelihoods. Do you know why? Because they like me. They like my story. Young, good-looking kid who pulled himself up by his bootstraps to make something of himself. Christ, I'm a storybook candidate. I balance out this ticket so well it’s almost too perfect. The people of Ohio are going to think that. And seniors in Florida—the state we supposedly lost when Mitt picked me—won’t be so scared as soon they know that my mother lives in Florida, and that all I want to do is reform the health care system so she can receive care that makes good fiscal sense.

Boy, I’m going to sell the s**t out of that talking point. And I’m going to do a great job of it. Why? Because I’m Paul Ryan. That’s what I do.

And if we’re having trouble getting Pennsylvania on board, just wait until I absolutely wipe the floor with Joe Biden in the vice presidential debates. Don’t think for a second that I don’t know you’re terrified of us facing off, because in the back of your mind you know it could be a bloodbath up there.

Well, that’s 77 electoral votes, and by my math that means you can kiss your golden boy goodbye after four short years. All that promise. All that energy. All that potential. Gone in one November night.

I’m your worst f*****g nightmare.

Oh, and by the way, don’t even try to pretend you haven’t imagined me being elected president one day.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

I read your "lie of the year". When I got to the part where it was telling us how the Democrats lied, I found this:

"• They used harsh terms such as "end" and "kill" when the program would still exist, although in a privatized system."

Now, I suspect you fellows believe, with ALL your hearts, and ALL your souls that PRIVATIZED Medicare is the same as what we have now.. But, in the REAL world, it ISN'T. It isn't even close.

So, if THAT'S the lie you think we told, you don't understand what a lie is... But, I think we've already established that on another thread..

excon

[tomder55]

And I'll add again that it is in fact Obamacare that fundamentally ends Medicare "as we know it" . It is Obamacare that robs the plan of $700 billion plus to kick start Obamacare . It is Obamacare that cuts Medicare more than R/R ever considered (Ryan's plan cuts spending ;Romney's doesn't ) .The truth is that in order to fund an expansion of government subsidized health insurance for all ;Obamacare robs resourses from the elderly .
So while R/R are trying to deal with the long term solvency of Medicare ;Obama reduces funding for Medicare and still does not address the solvency issue. .

[speechlesstx]

So, if THAT'S the lie you think we told, you don't understand what a lie is... But, I think we've already established that on another thread..

excon

Dude, this is YOUR side calling it the lie of the year, not mine.