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Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by sawsall02

Hi all,

Here is a very good website that proves God exists, in which I stumbled across.

proofthatgodexists.com

No, I was not wrong. You were. I used the link you gave. Now you are saying it is dot org, not dot com -- big difference.

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 09:42 AM

That site's conclusion that God exists is that you first have to be a Christian:

"The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

This type of logical proof deals with 'transcendentals' or 'necessary starting points,' and the proof is called a 'transcendental proof.' Any contrary view to the God of Christianity being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him. Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality."

sawsall02 · May 11, 2011, 09:42 AM

Sorry Wondergirl, I was wrong it is: proofthatgodexists.org

NeedKarma · May 11, 2011, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by sawsall02

If are thought's are RANDOM proccesses, how can you come to ANY conclusion?

Thoughts are not random. I made the thought and came to a conclusion. Is it not the same for you?

sawsall02 · May 11, 2011, 09:45 AM

Correct!

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 09:47 AM

Thus, if you are not a Christian, there is no proof of God nor can anyone prove there is a God.

You have to be a Christian first -- which makes the whole exercise on the site stupid and worthless.

In other words, the site owner is preaching to the choir and not proving anything.

NeedKarma · May 11, 2011, 09:54 AM

It is unnerving and ironic that one of the buttons sets a fallacious argument about molesting children for fun is morally wrong given the unsavoury reputation of some priests.

dwashbur · May 11, 2011, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Thus, if you are not a Christian, there is no proof of God nor can anyone prove there is a God.

You have to be a Christian first -- which makes the whole exercise on the site stupid and worthless.

In other words, the site owner is preaching to the choir and not proving anything.

That site reminds me of Bob Harrington's old argument for why he believes in God: "Because I want to."

That first part with the various buttons about absolute truth is so incredibly stupid I couldn't get any further. You're not helping your case, sawsall. If this kind of gobbledygook is good enough for you, fine. But some of our skeptic friends on this board tend to think a bit deeper than that. I understand what they're trying to say, but they're doing a lousy job of it.

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 10:11 AM

Also, from that site --

"Nobody needs arguments for the existence of God. Nobody needs proof that God exists. The Bible teaches that those who claim that God does not exist are merely suppressing what they already know to be true.

Contrary to how it may appear, this website is in no way trying to prove that God exists."

Is this site owner related to Harold Camping?

Synnen · May 11, 2011, 10:18 AM

Wait---I believe that *A* god exists.

I just don't believe that it is the CHRISTIAN God.

So---I'm denying it because I'm not Christian? What a load of carp!

This is why I hate arguing with Christians about it. They can "prove" that their god exists, but only if I actually believe that their proofs aren't make-believe too. It all comes down to "I'm right and you're wrong" with too many of them, with nothing but their own personal beliefs to back it up.

Sorry--someone in the 2nd century "proved" that the Earth was the center of the universe, too--using some of the same kinds of arguments. That kind of "proof" sucks, frankly, and is taken apart by the first person who actually thinks for themselves rather than being told what to think by a religious leader.

dwashbur · May 11, 2011, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Synnen

Wait---I believe that *A* god exists.

I just don't believe that it is the CHRISTIAN God.

So---I'm denying it because I'm not Christian? What a load of carp!

This is why I hate arguing with Christians about it. They can "prove" that their god exists, but only if I actually believe that their proofs aren't make-believe too. It all comes down to "I'm right and you're wrong" with too many of them, with nothing but their own personal beliefs to back it up.

Sorry--someone in the 2nd century "proved" that the Earth was the center of the universe, too--using some of the same kinds of arguments. That kind of "proof" sucks, frankly, and is taken apart by the first person who actually thinks for themself rather than being told what to think by a religious leader.

Speaking as a Christian, and a fairly conservative one at that, I have to agree with you. Most of the arguments are, in a word, stupid. There are much better ones, but too many self-appointed apologists either don't take the time or don't have the gray matter to grasp and interact with them. Instead, they take the "easy" road, a la this lame website. I'd be glad to discuss with you how I get from "a" god to the God of Christianity, and I promise to at least pretend to have a brain :D

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

I'd be glad to discuss with you how I get from "a" god to the God of Christianity, and I promise to at least pretend to have a brain :D

I'd LOVE to see and be part of such a discussion! Is there a place on this site to have it?

Synnen · May 11, 2011, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'd LOVE to see and be part of such a discussion! Is there a place on this site to have it?

Members Discussions :)

dwashbur · May 11, 2011, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Synnen

Members Discussions :)

I'm game, are you?

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Synnen

Members Discussions :)

I was hoping my comment could encourage you and Dave to start such a discussion. If I start it, no one would show up.

Synnen · May 11, 2011, 03:20 PM

I show up to them when I see them and have a chance to respond--most of the time I'm at work when I'm on AMHD, so it all depends on how busy I am.

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

I'm game, are you?

Yay!!

dwashbur · May 11, 2011, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Synnen

I show up to them when I see them and have a chance to respond--most of the time I'm at work when I'm on AMHD, so it all depends on how busy I am.

I can dig that. How about you start a thread when you get a chance, and just let me know how to find it, and we can go from there? My schedule is a lot more open, so I can adapt to yours as necessary.

TUT317 · May 11, 2011, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That site's conclusion that God exists is that you first have to be a Christian:

"The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

This type of logical proof deals with ‘transcendentals’ or ‘necessary starting points,’ and the proof is called a ‘transcendental proof.’ Any contrary view to the God of Christianity being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him. Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality."

Hi WG

Most transcendental arguments use the starting point of experience. On this basis there does not have to be a 'necessary' or logical starting point so long as you are trying to deduce something from empirical facts.
In other words, there can be any number of starting points concerning how we think, judge or have experiences generally.

I am not sure what you mean by," Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality" Taken at face value I would disagree with this statement.

Tut

Wondergirl · May 11, 2011, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi WG

I am not sure what you mean by," Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality" Taken at face value I would disagree with this statement.

Tut

Tut, please read the entire thread. All of what I quoted was from the web site that had been posted by someone else. They are NOT my thoughts or beliefs. I stated that I found the logic on that site to be absurd.