[Jake2008]

All very valid points absolutely.

I hope that you get a commitment to change from her, and that she is seriously going to try. If she is, there is nothing on that list that cannot be accomplished.

She may be overwhelmed, in which case, maybe just introduce the list as something she can add to, or take away from, and that the list itself, can be negotiated. Have a copy for her, and maybe the therapist as well.

Also consider that, not to overwhelm her, let her know that you don't expect to accomplish everything right off, but together, by a certain time, a working list, with reasonable dates to accomplish the goals you have both decided upon.

Success will build upon success, and seeing goals actually met, and this 'meeting of the minds' to accomplish them, will really encourage more and more trying and the results will be so worth the effort.

But, the basics first. A schedule, or plan, definite goals, and a reasonable time frame.

I think you're working hard, and in the right direction.

[talaniman]

Leave her alone, and stick to the therapy. Rushing through the process will ultimately be a disaster and you will miss a lot of things that you need to pay attention too. Making demands and expecting instant results is a recipe for confusion, and resentment.

Buddy if you don't slow down, and learn to listen, your going to rush headlong over a cliff. Not only is your logic flawed, selfish and one sided, but self serving as well.

Leave her alone to process herself, and her actions, so she can recognize the adjustments she needs to make.

Take baby steps, and pay attention, because this isn't about you and what you want, but growth, and building communications so you can get answers.

Your taking a narrow view on a bigger picture.

[dustdevil]

So the list is a bad idea for tomorrow? Trying to come up with a game plan. I haven't visited her parents house since she left 6 weeks ago.

Slow down and learn to listen to her? The only thing I'm hearing from her is that she needs to find herself and her happiness. Why that has to occur at the exclusion of me is bewildering.

Aside from the list. My original goal was to have her take some career interest tests and try to narrow down what hobbies she might be interested in, so she can try a shotgun approach of trying a bunch of new activities/hobbies and find out what she likes.

If I leave everything to her, she won't talk about relationship stuff or anything at all. Therapist said she is the pace car, but also said that the pace car is stalled.

[talaniman]

That's what I'm talking about you making decisions for her that work for you, but not her.

Let her fix her own car, so she learns how to do it and you fix yourself and find some patience.

She isn't the only one to benefit from some hobbies it seems.

Your too pushy. Way too pushy, and its overwhelming.

[Gemini54]

So the list is a bad idea for tomorrow? Trying to come up with a game plan. I haven't visited her parents house since she left 6 weeks ago.

Slow down and learn to listen to her? The only thing I'm hearing from her is that she needs to find herself and her happiness. Why that has to occur at the exclusion of me is bewildering.

Aside from the list. My original goal was to have her take some career interest tests and try to narrow down what hobbies she might be interested in, so she can try a shotgun approach of trying a bunch of new activities/hobbies and find out what she likes.

If I leave everything to her, she won't talk about relationship stuff or anything at all. Therapist said she is the pace car, but also said that the pace car is stalled.

Hey Dusty, we all need to find our OWN happiness. If your wife finds happiness to the exclusion of you that may well be very good, because it may mean she is finding herself, but not necessarily excluding you , which is how you see it.

You don't have to BE her happiness, but you can be in her life and make her happy. Do you get the difference?

Just as an aside, if I was feeling confused and worried about my marriage, I would not appreciate my husband giving me a list of hobbies or career interests. It's much too soon for that.

Let the process take its own course - the car may be stalled, but it will fire up again.

Try and be patient.

[dustdevil]

Thank you for your replies. If I seem daft, I'm having some difficulty fully comprehending the metaphors, and some of the answers seem ambiguous.

I know that we need to find our own happiness. I define that happiness as lifestyle and activities. More or less 'hobbies'.

I know that you don't seek and base your happiness on someone else.

I'm saying, why does she need to find her hobbies/lifestyle outside of the house if that's truly the problem. I encourage her to do anything that she might enjoy. Why is finding these, and being with me mutually exclusive? She has no responsibilities at home. She can go out whenever she wants. She has 3-4 hours of MORE free time at my home per day than at her parents house (because of her longer commute to work)

The therapist suggested she take up hobbies/activities to help with her depression (She won't take pills for depression, nor has she been diagnosed, but she always seems depressed due to her lack of interest in anything).

I also feel that she hasn't had time to really 'process' or whatever because she's been spending her time with some other guy instead of working on our marriage. At least in the first week or two of the separation we were going on dates and doing things. Now when I wait week after week for therapy, and nothings different, it just makes me want to kick it in the pants.

As a side note, I'm also concerned because I do not make enough money on unemployment to pay all of the bills for the house she left since she cutoff her paycheck. I'm slowly draining my savings account, and I have 1 month left of unemployment payments (With a likely, but not guaranteed 5 month extension). Whereas before, if we were together, I could accept a job that pays $12/hr and we could get by, now I can't settle for anything less than 25$/hr, which is very difficult in this economy, so I'm stressed out.

[talaniman]

Those are the issues you have and this is the perfect time to deal with them and resolve some of your stress. That's better than letting it ruin your relationship. Financial stress is the #1 cause of divorces. Especially for those who live beyond their means. Yes the economy is lousy, but no excuse for couples to not work together, through honest communications so they can build together.

I think your wife wants to be a mother and raise a family, and doesn't care about the economy.

Good luck with the job search. Vocational college to improve your marketable skills is a great hobby for you. Many of the schools have all kinds of financial help, and a placement service for after graduation. Check them out.

[dustdevil]

Hung out at her house for about 8 hours. Went to dinner and shopping at Walmart to pick up things for her to live. Also helped organize her bedroom and move her new bed.

Spent a majority of the time cuddling on the bed. Kept misreading signals on intimacy boundaries. I have an uncontrollable urge for affection, and then when I get rejected, I become masochistic and try again. Eventually got oral, but no sex, and that calmed me down for a few hours, until she initiated kissing, and I misread signals again, and repeated the cycle.

Last night she pointed out two possible incompatibilities. One is that I'm normally affectionately cold. She'll start taking my pants off while I'm doing something in the kitchen, and I'll reject her advances. I'd pretty much reject most sexual advances until bedtime. I don't know why this is. During the day time, if she wants to have a prolonged kissing session, my nose will plug up, and I'll feel like I'm suffocating, and stop.

If you were to ask me, I'd say I wouldn't mind being as sexually active as she wants me to be, but I don't know why I behaved the way I did in the past.

A second incompatibility point is small talk, conversation. She doesn't talk as much as I'd like to, so to fill the dead air, I'll talk about my interests. Or perhaps I'll pick up a new hobby, and I'll have a one track mind. I started doing RC planes, and that's ALL I could talk about. When I was working, that's what I'd do with my coworkers too that sat next to me. I know it bores them, but I felt like I couldn't help but talk about my passions.

She thinks I need to be with someone who would appreciate my passions and my need to talk about them endlessly. I think that hardly anyone actually appreciates the amount of time I spend talking about those technical subjects, and that I just need to learn to be more sociable.

Me always talking about technical stuff hurts our small talk. I feel like I can never say anything interesting to my wife, but all day all I read is geek news or do geeky stuff, so I feel like I have nothing else to talk about.

[Gemini54]

Well find something else to talk about ! Sheesh.

[dustdevil]

Roger roger. Spoke with my best friend, and he agreed, I need to develop social skills so I can work on talking about other stuff.

Sent the wife the list on last Thursday and went over it. She couldn't answer any of the questions, and I didn't push her.

Saw her on Friday, and now it's Monday. Had a brief phonecall with her today about 10 minutes ago. Told her I'm going to bring up goals in the next therapy session. She's not comfortable with setting goals, or having goals. It's the only thing I'm really feeling we're lacking right now, aside from continuing to dig up stuff (Which is good). There's the personal goals which I'm aware of (stuff we individually need to work on), and then the relationship goals and other stuff that would have a rough timeline, etc.


She doesn't want to discuss serious stuff on the phone still (although she will), since it turns into 3 hour phone calls (I agree), and she feels I don't 'get it' sometimes. I think I'll just have to leave that stuff for therapy perhaps, although the goal in the first few sessions of therapy was to build the communication skills so that we could hash stuff up constructively. At least in therapy there is a definite timebox.


What is the endgame here? The stuff she's brought up isn't unreasonable for me to change, and she's bringing up valid character flaws that I should work on regardless if we'll still be married. I always see it as, state issues, address issues then get back together? She doesn't feel it's as simple as that however.

[Gemini54]

Roger roger. Spoke with my best friend, and he agreed, I need to develop social skills so I can work on talking about other stuff.

Sent the wife the list on last Thursday and went over it. She couldn't answer any of the questions, and I didn't push her.

Saw her on Friday, and now it's Monday. Had a brief phonecall with her today about 10 minutes ago. Told her I'm going to bring up goals in the next therapy session. She's not comfortable with setting goals, or having goals. It's the only thing I'm really feeling we're lacking right now, aside from continuing to dig up stuff (Which is good). There's the personal goals which I'm aware of (stuff we individually need to work on), and then the relationship goals and other stuff that would have a rough timeline, etc.


She doesn't want to discuss serious stuff on the phone still (although she will), since it turns into 3 hour phone calls (I agree), and she feels I don't 'get it' sometimes. I think I'll just have to leave that stuff for therapy perhaps, although the goal in the first few sessions of therapy was to build the communication skills so that we could hash stuff up constructively. At least in therapy there is a definite timebox.


What is the endgame here? The stuff she's brought up isn't unreasonable for me to change, and she's bringing up valid character flaws that I should work on regardless if we'll still be married. I always see it as, state issues, address issues then get back together? She doesn't feel it's as simple as that however.

Dusty, are you an engineer? Because you're approaching this whole thing like a project to be completed in a certain time-frame. I can almost see you on Microsoft Project planning the whole thing and printing out the Gant charts.

It's really admirable to set objectives, and sure, you want to know broadly where the counselling might be heading, but I feel like you're overdoing it. You've decided she's your project and you're going to bring her back into the marriage come hell or high water.

Goals are good but I suspect that this is not what she wants from you. She wants you to connect with her. Goals, hobbies, objectives, key performance indicators are not the language of love.

If I recall, her issue with you in the marriage was that you could not connect with her at an intimate level or empathize with her. I don't hear you saying anything about reconnecting with her as a person or establishing intimacy.

I think that you need to be doing things together and getting to like each other as people again - listening to each other and laughing together. Perhaps back off on the sex for a while.

Instead of regaling her with lists of hobbies and goals, why don't you go away for a weekend? I know that you haven't got much money, but can't you go camping somewhere gorgeous or stay in a funny little motel in some cute little town? Instead of sitting at home and trying to get into her pants why don't you go to a movie, out for dinner, go for a walk, a drive whatever.

Try to be together without expectation - who knows what the endgame is? It's actually NOT important. The PROCESS is much more important. If you keep focusing on the outcome you'll miss what's happening in between.

[dustdevil]

LOL. Yes I am an engineer! That cracked me up.

Go away for the weekend with her or by myself?

I think my mindset needs to be "Small talk, happy talk" until we can figure out constructive timeboxed methods of doing serious talk.

We didn't end up doing the hobby list thing.

Still need to find the strength to hang out with her at a house without trying to get all over her. (Although she initiated the intimacy). It's unspoken, but I think it loses me trust and discourages her from hanging out in the future.

I guess goals is wrong then. I guess what I'm really looking for is some way for her to show that she's working or committed on working on things, something outside of therapy sessions.

[Gemini54]

LOL. Yes I am an engineer! That cracked me up.

Go away for the weekend with her or by myself?

I think my mindset needs to be "Small talk, happy talk" until we can figure out constructive timeboxed methods of doing serious talk.

We didn't end up doing the hobby list thing.

Still need to find the strength to hang out with her at a house without trying to get all over her. (Although she initiated the intimacy). It's unspoken, but I think it loses me trust and discourages her from hanging out in the future.

I guess goals is wrong then. I guess what I'm really looking for is some way for her to show that she's working or committed on working on things, something outside of therapy sessions.

No I meant going away together - I was suggesting things that would help to reestablish talking about small talk stuff. Heavens, why would I suggest you stay somewhere like a funny little motel on your own? LOL! Can you try and have some fun together?

Goal are OK - just keep it in context that it's the process not the outcome that's at issue here. Remember, you can't control her process, you can only manage your own. Work on yourself and let her do what she needs to do, in her own time.

[dustdevil]

Need to get into that mindset. I remember the quote from a friend, in a buddha voice, "Life is a journey, not a destination (Or race?), enjoy the journey"

Me and the wife had even mentioned a similar thing regarding the last few mini vacations we've had. I'm so hung up on finding things to DO during vacation (like trips up to Seattle) that I neglect enjoying the journey.

For example, my friends were going to Taco Bell and invited me to go along. I declined, since I didn't want any food, and so I figured it was a waste of time. But then I realized, that who knows what might happen on the way there, that it could be an adventure, and that I should go so that I can enjoy the trip.

I don't know if the wife would be comfortable spending the night with me somewhere. I had brought up camping on the coast in the government owned cabins. It's kind of very cold and wet here in the northwest.

Could you elaborate on "just keep it in context that it's the process not the outcome that's at issue here. Remember, you can't control her process, you can only manage your own."?

[Gemini54]

Need to get into that mindset. I remember the quote from a friend, in a buddha voice, "Life is a journey, not a destination (Or race?), enjoy the journey"

Me and the wife had even mentioned a similar thing regarding the last few mini vacations we've had. I'm so hung up on finding things to DO during vacation (like trips up to Seattle) that I neglect enjoying the journey.

For example, my friends were going to Taco Bell and invited me to go along. I declined, since I didn't want any food, and so I figured it was a waste of time. But then I realized, that who knows what might happen on the way there, that it could be an adventure, and that I should go so that I can enjoy the trip.

I don't know if the wife would be comfortable spending the night with me somewhere. I had brought up camping on the coast in the government owned cabins. It's kind of very cold and wet here in the northwest.

Could you elaborate on "just keep it in context that it's the process not the outcome that's at issue here. Remember, you can't control her process, you can only manage your own."?

Well, what you seem to be talking about is

looking for is some way for her to show that she's working or committed on working on things, something outside of therapy sessions

. That's you trying to control the process that she's going through - you want her to 'show you' that she's committed. I understand that! But, in the end she has to do it her way, not your way and you can't make her 'show' you.

She's obviously hesitant and reluctant at some level. I suggest that she'd like to see you working on yourself not her.

The process will be different for both of you and it's understanding what's happening NOW that's important rather than thinking about where you want to be.

It is Buddhist in concept - you can waste a lot of thought and energy thinking about the future, and forget about this moment, 'The Now' (as E. Tolle might call it).

[dustdevil]

Welp.

Didn't contact the wife at all today. She contacted me over IM, and then called me on the phone. Said she doesn't want to go to therapy tomorrow, and wants a divorce and is writing up some letter to me to explain things, which she hasn't sent yet.

So I guess that's it, and that explains why she doesn't really want to work on anything.

I appreciate all your insight and comfort that you've provided me for the past 2 months, and it's time for me to move on with my life.

Things seemed kind of fishy, and as her dad told me, 'her actions speak louder than words'.

I hope she's happy with the new guy.

Kind of numb right now. I don't hurt or anything. Although when this stuff hits me, I do kind of just go into shock, and then it hits me later. On the other hand, I've been mentally prepared for this for well over a month.

[Gemini54]

Welp.

Didn't contact the wife at all today. She contacted me over IM, and then called me on the phone. Said she doesn't want to go to therapy tomorrow, and wants a divorce and is writing up some letter to me to explain things, which she hasn't sent yet.

So I guess that's it, and that explains why she doesn't really want to work on anything.

I appreciate all your insight and comfort that you've provided me for the past 2 months, and it's time for me to move on with my life.

Things seemed kinda fishy, and as her dad told me, 'her actions speak louder than words'.

I hope she's happy with the new guy.

Kinda numb right now. I don't hurt or anything. Although when this stuff hits me, I do kinda just go into shock, and then it hits me later. On the other hand, I've been mentally prepared for this for well over a month.

So sorry Dusty - no wonder she was half hearted about everything. Let us know when you get the letter. It will be interesting to see what she says.

[dustdevil]

Here's the letter. I called her afterwards for about 10 minutes. Saying that we didn't learn to effectively communicate so that we could provide each others needs. She still thinks it's unreasonable or impossible for others to change in the manners that she wants. I think it's an utter crap letter, but here you go.

Dear Joe,

I feel very badly to be writing you al letter instead of speaking with you in person, but I feel so overwhelmed and helpless when we are face-to-face. I know you have no malicious intentions but I feel this is the best way that I can stay objective and say what I need to say.

When we decided to get married I wish we would have discussed things more thoroughly. I wish we would have waited and established goals then, like family and careers. I had no doubts, but I was too young to really understand my own needs and life goals. Over the years I have learned to put my needs and goals aside because I loved you. My only goal became making you happy and helping you achieve your goals, no matter how different that was from my goals or happiness. I found that compromise was very nearly impossible much of the time, and it seemed to just be easier to 'give in' than to stand up for myself. Quiely my own needs went unfulfilled, and I could only think of so many ways to ask for a hug or for a caring shoulder before I realized that it just wasn't in the cards. It festered into resentment, jealousy, and indifference.

I'm sorry I let it get so bad. I kept hoping that somehow we would transform into one of those happy couples who know each other so well they finish eachother's sentences and hold eachother's hand as they stroll down the street. The kind that stare longingly into eachother's eyes and give each other subtle smiles throughout the day. But years later I grew to hate those couples, because I knew deep down that that would never be us. We have never had the deep emotional connection that I now realize is so essential to me. The bonds of friendship that hold true when the rest of our lives crumble. The security to boldly face any challenge armed with the knowledge that you are not alone. That you have a best friend who loves and understands you. That they will always have your back no matter what.

I think that everyone deserves that kind of companionship. It has taken me a long time to realize that I deserve it too. That despite whatever brash decisions I made as a youth, I don't have to live with them forever if it doesn't make me happy. I don't have to feel like a failure because honestly, I know I gave it my all. And its nobody's fault that it just doesn't fit me anymore. That's what humans do. They grow up.

For what its worth, you were always a good Husband. You did everything you could to please me. You never placed unreasonable standards upon me, never asked very much of me. You were a good provider and a stable partner. I never had to worry about safety or loyalty. Even now I feel very lucky that you have been a part of my life. I know in my heart that you will be a good father. If you invest one tenth of the dedication to your family as you do your hobbies, I know that you will overcome all your anxieties about fatherhood. If you want it, you WILL be a better parrent that the ones you had.

I hope that you will continue to grow emotionally and socially. You have so much to offer the world. I truly mean that. You are the smartest person I have ever met. Sometimes I wondered what you could possibly see in me because you were just sooo much more advanced than I was. The focus and dediciation you have when you put your mind to something really is unique. From fish and plants, to working planes and sophisticated radio technology, you are a very diverse individual. You also have an impressive set of morals, better than any man I know. Sometimes I felt ashamed that I was not as morally defined as you. And it really, honestly did not bother me at all that you had gained some weight. You carry it very well and you have such sexy physique. When you grew your beard long, I missed seeing your face, because you are so very handsome. You have always been very generous and loyal to your friends and they are lucky to have you.

I know the consequences of my actions and what I am giving up. Its scary and overwhelming and uncomfortable. But I know that I need to go out and experience the world to truly know myself. That I have formed many different types of friendships but I have not found the enduring friendship to sustain me through life's darkest moments. And if I don't muster up the courage to seek happiness, I will spend the rest of my life regreting it. So it is better that we end the marriage while we are still young and have so little established. I have no intentions of leading you around like a puppy, or stringing up false hopes in an attempt to keep you like a fall-back plan. I just wish so badly that we had some thread of friendship worth holding onto. But it is what it is and I understand and respect your need to move on the best way you can. You know how I can be reached if someday you change your mind.

I am sorry for all the pain I caused you, and I wish only the very best for you.
Veronica

[redhed35]

Hey.I thought it was a pretty good letter,thought out and even I got what she was trying to say..

We can only post advice of what we see on the screen,and many times its only one side of the story...

Reading her letter,I see a broader view and whatever has occurred and its no comfort right now,but she has made her case clear and what her intentions are and how she perceived her married life...

I'm sorry its over,you tried,you didn't fail,you reached the conclusion.

[Gemini54]

I am sorry that you're feeling angry and upset Dusty - in some ways you have a right to be. Can I ask you though, when you're feeling less angry, not to dismiss your wife's letter as utter crap?

They are her feelings, and for what it's worth, they are real to her. There are always two sides to a story, and as Red says, it's interesting to hear hers. In my first post to you on this thread I said:

There is a watershed moment in all of our lives, when we realize that the life we're living isn't quite right and that we have contributed to that situation. This is yours.

There are really big lessons here for both of you, but for you in particular. It seems neither of you knew how to connect with or listen to each other, You were lost in your hobbies and projects, she was who knows where.

There are always good things that come out of bad situations, if we allow it. Keep working on yourself - make yourself the project for a while and get to understand who you are. If you can take this into another relationship you will attract the person you desire and be much happier.

It's always very hard to be the person on the receiving end of a letter like this.