[N0help4u]

Yeah I understand what you mean.
When Biblical peoples names were changed like Abram and Paul the name has a significant meaning but I don't see where it means he IS the rock in the sense of taking over Jesus being the rock and I don't see it as meaning any denomination either.

[Galveston1]

The words in the Greek tell the story.

Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,(apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:
KJV-- Peter, rock. Compare 2786.) and upon this rock (4073 petra (pet'-ra);
Feminine of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- rock.I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV)

The words in the parenthesis is the definition of the Greek word used (Strong's Concordance) Petrus (Peter) is piece of rock: Petra (this rock) is a massive rock. Don't confuse the two.

[Galveston1]

I believe I did back them up with Scripture.



I believe they do line up with Scripture. And I believe I have shown how.



Well, you claim not to believe in the Bible alone. And that is good because I think that doctrine is definitely against what the Bible teaches.

But, I'm willing if you are, to compare my Catholic beliefs to your Assembly of God doctrines and see which line up with Scripture.

For instance, do you believe that the Eucharist is the Flesh and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ? I do.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It impossible that the bread and wine of the Eucharist can be literal BECAUSE at the time He said "This is my body, this is my blood" His body was still intact and alive and His blood was still in His veins. Such being the case, to say His statement was literal is obviously wrong. Besides, the Bible specifically forbids the eating of blood under any circumstaces, even animal blood.

[Galveston1]

Before you can have a succession, there must be a first, so consider the following:

Matt 23:9-12
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
(KJV)

Jesus reprimanded His Apostles for trying to place them in a position above others. The Pope claims to be THE vicar of Christ, yet the Bible teaches that the CHURCH is the body (vicar) of Christ, of which all followers of Christ are members.

Vs 9 above: The Pope is called THE holy father in contidiction of this verse.


1 Tim 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
(KJV)

Peter was a married man.

When Paul wrote his lettere from Rome, he named several believers that were also in Rome, and he did not mention Peter even once. Is it reasonable to think that if Peter was there, Paul would have mentioned him, and especially if Peter was the first Pope?

And finally, what resemblance to the church described in the early chapters of Acts, do you see in the Roman Catholic Church?

[N0help4u]

And finally, what resemblance to the church described in the early chapters of Acts, do you see in the Roman Catholic Church?

Exactly why I believe my denominational preference is closer to THE Church.

[sndbay]

The words in the Greek tell the story.

Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,(apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:
KJV-- Peter, rock. Compare 2786.) and upon this rock (4073 petra (pet'-ra);
feminine of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- rock.I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV)

The words in the parenthesis is the definition of the Greek word used (Strong's Concordance) Petrus (Peter) is piece of rock: Petra (this rock) is a massive rock. Don't confuse the two.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Point of Fact: Jesus say Simon/Peter is blessed because he was not revealed the truth of who Jesus was by Man=flesh and blood but by the Father in heaven

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Point of Fact : note the ( , ) after Peter, and upon this rock (what rock? The Rock Jesus, who he had just had revealed to him by the Father. The church is built upon the foundation/Rock of Jesus.
I have the Strong Concordance and the Greek /Hebrew to refer.. But one still has to Open their mind to hearing God.

[N0help4u]

At any rate Jesus is the rock, Peter is a piece of the rock and we are all a part of the church,
A study on the cornerstone and the verses on us all being a part of the body shows that.

[sndbay]

The words in the Greek tell the story.

Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,(apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:
KJV-- Peter, rock. Compare 2786.) and upon this rock (4073 petra (pet'-ra);
feminine of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- rock.I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV)

The words in the parenthesis is the definition of the Greek word used (Strong's Concordance) Petrus (Peter) is piece of rock: Petra (this rock) is a massive rock. Don't confuse the two.

Point of facts are true... As shown below each word has been locked in by safe keeping # This safe keeping is called the Massorah. The verse: Matthew 16:18 And 1161 I say 3004 also 2504 unto thee 4671, That 3754 thou 4771 art 1488 Peter 4074, and 2532 upon 1909 this 5026 rock 4073 I will build 3618 my 3450 church 1577; and 2532 the gates 4439 of hell 86 shall 2729 0 not 3756 prevail against 2729 it 846.

4073 Petra = cliff, ledge, entirely

4074 Petros = piece of rock

1 Corinthians 10:4 And 2532 did 4095 0 all 3956 drink 4095 the same 846 spiritual 4152 drink 4188: for 1063 they drank 4095 of 1537 that spiritual 4152 Rock 4073 that followed them 190 : and 1161 that Rock 4073 was 2258 Christ 5547.

Point of Fact: The Rock was Jesus

[De Maria]

Point of facts are true...

I want to thank all of you for such a wonderful and polite discussion. I hope it will be ongoing when I return, God willing, in eight days.

I'll contribute a little bit before I leave.

[De Maria]

I would love to see the exact history on that.

Sure:
These are books:
Founding Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 1
Building Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 2
Glory Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 3
Cleaving Of Christendom - A History Of Christendom, Vol. 4

This is a website with a summary of Church History:
http://www.marianland.com/truech01.html

Thanks for the interest.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

If this is so why isn't in the book of Acts?

St. Ignatius was appointed Bishop of Antioch by St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. It is in his writings that we find the word Catholic used for the first time.

[De Maria]

Then I can pray through any Christian that died because saints are any of God's children.

We don't believe we can make that judgement independently of the Church.

You see, the Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

The Scriptures also say that not all Christians will go to heaven:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven:...

The Scriptures also say that we can't even judge ourselves only God can read hearts:
1 Corinthians 4 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

Therefore, since we can't judge but since the Church is infallible, the Church may judge:
Ephesians 3 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

1 Corinthians 6 3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?

And even the Church does not take this judgement lightly. First the person's history is studied to see if he is deserving of prayer. At that point he is considered blessed. Then after many years and proof that prayers to God have been answered in this Saint's name, then perhaps they are canonized as Saints.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Doesn't make sense to me. Seems the Church made that 'judgment' independently of the Bible.
The Bible doesn't say for man to evaluate one Christian more highly than the other. In fact it speaks the opposite.

[De Maria]

I like your passion and your faith. But I don't see the answer to my question.

Why do some say we may disobey the Church?

The scripture is clear in saying the church is those who believe in Christ, and the foundation of the church is built on the Rock which is Christ.
Hebrew 3:1-6 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Note the ( If ) we hold fast

1 Corinthains 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ok, but how does that answer my question? Weren't you addressing this statement of mine?

That is true. But then why would some say that you must obey Scripture but you need not obey the Church? If the Church is Christ then we must obey the Church. And Scripture is clear, the Church is Christ:

Essentially you are equating the Church and Christ. If that is so, that means that we must be obedient to the Church since we must be obedient to Christ.

Let's read further on this because I trust it will give more awareness to Truth as to what Paul was actually saying: KJV Colossians 1:23-25 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Paul will do all that is asked of him to assure that Christ and all Christ gave us, is apart of the church that Paul is teaching, according to God's command to Paul. The fulfillment of the Word of God.



KJV Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

This becomes the choice of who you or I obey, and submit to.

Proverbs 6:21-23 Bind them continually upon thine heart, [and] tie them about thy neck. 22 When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and [when] thou awakest, it shall talk with thee.23 For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:

That is true. But even in the Old Testament, God willed obedience to men. That is why He sent the Prophets. That is why He apponted Moses:

Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

Do you think that God wanted the people to disregard Moses or the Prophets?

If not, why then do you now believe we must disregard the Church?

In 1 Corinthians 3, Apostle Paul's teachings are concerning the foundation of the church. And how that foundation was set in Christ Jesus and not man. Verse 17 of chapter 3 goes on to say if any man defile the Temple of God, he shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is holy. Verse 18 of chapter 3 states let no man deceive himself by thinking that
What seems to be wise in the world or lets say if you are street smart, let him be a fool. Because you fail to be wise in God's love. Verse 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. Verse 21 So let no man glory in men. 22 For all things present and things to come are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.( Ezekiel 18:4 All souls belong to God )
1 Corinthains 4:1 Let all men minster of Christ, and teach the mysteries of God.

Again, if Christ founded the Church, why disregard the Church?

Understand that to me, this was you putting a stumbling stone before me.

I wonder why?

I am simply going by Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture say that we must follow the Bible alone. In fact, it seems categorically to say we must follow the Church.

As for me, if I follow the Church it is because Scripture says so.

There are some who say the Church is spiritual and can't be found. But Matt 18:17 categorically states that we can find It. And we can hear it. And if we don't believe it and honor it, we must be treated as heathen.

Your authority over what I trust as Christ in my heart. His Word, His Body, All that God commanded.. And I would never reduce Christ.

Proverbs 24:3-4 (KJV):Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established: And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.

Exodus 8: 10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4: 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Hosea 4:6a: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

Yet you seem to be reducing the Word of God to Scripture. Whereas Scripture recognizes that the Word of God is passed on by word of mouth and by tradition as well as Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.

Don't think that I am trying to convert you to my way of thinking. However, it is frequently alleged that Catholics don't follow the Scriptures because we obey the Church. But it seems clear to me that in obeying the Church we are obeying the Word of God in Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Doesn't make sense to me. Seems the Church made that 'judgment' independently of the Bible.
The Bible doesn't say for man to evaluate one Christian more highly than the other. In fact it speaks the opposite.

Certain Scriptures tell indivicuals not to judge.

But Christ gave the Church the power to bind and loose and to forgive and retain sins.

John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Therefore, we believe the Church is given the right to judge each individual.

And it seems the Church was very comfortable with the idea of judgement since the Apostles very early on did so:

Galatians 1 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Acts 8
18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast no part nor lot in this matter. For thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I see thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bonds of iniquity.

1 Timothy 1 20 Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered up to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Acts Of Apostles 5 3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? 4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? And after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words, fell down, and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

So The Church (Catholic) is Christ therefore we are to have faith that whatever the Popes declare to be is to be even though there is no Biblical basis and even contradicted in Scripture because The Catholic Church is believed before the scripture?

[N0help4u]

Christ gave BELIEVERS the power to Bind and Loose so why do you want to give your God given powers over to the Church?

The church is to teach, instruct, edify and strengthen. Not impose rituals.

[sndbay]

I like your passion and your faith. But I don't see the answer to my question.

Why do some say we may disobey the Church?

Essentially you are equating the Church and Christ. If that is so, that means that we must be obedient to the Church since we must be obedient to Christ.

I best answered your question by using scripture. And again I state firmly that the Bible is the Word of God written in scripture. I also made a statement using the scripture on Peter being told by the priest that he was not to speak of Christ and His blood. Peter replied that he would rather do as God has told him. There are several that call themselves a church.. there are members that attend these church... The question is which church has the foundation of Christ. And as Peter told the priest, He would follow the Word of God.

Now you tell me, Do you feel the priest felt he knew what Holy Sacred Text was saying better then what Peter knew in his heart?

Paul stated in Colossians which I already submitted to you by scripture refer: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

That is true. But even in the Old Testament, God willed obedience to men. That is why He sent the Prophets. That is why He apponted Moses:

Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

Do you think that God wanted the people to disregard Moses or the Prophets?

If not, why then do you now believe we must disregard the Church?



Again, if Christ founded the Church, why disregard the Church?


I am simply going by Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture say that we must follow the Bible alone. In fact, it seems categorically to say we must follow the Church.

You are asking the same question , and in my opinion you may not like what I find in my heart as Peter did, to be all the Truth.

As for me, if I follow the Church it is because Scripture says so.

There are some who say the Church is spiritual and can't be found. But Matt 18:17 categorically states that we can find It. And we can hear it. And if we don't believe it and honor it, we must be treated as heathen.

Hopefully you also find your church minister, according to the dispensation of God

Yet you seem to be reducing the Word of God to Scripture. Whereas Scripture recognizes that the Word of God is passed on by word of mouth and by tradition as well as Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.

1 Peter 1: 17- 21And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Don't think that I am trying to convert you to my way of thinking. However, it is frequently alleged that Catholics don't follow the Scriptures because we obey the Church. But it seems clear to me that in obeying the Church we are obeying the Word of God in Scripture.

The Word of God warns us not to be deceived as Eve was by false teaching. I trust he fore told us all things for a very good reason. It was Satan who tempted Christ in twisted scriptures.. Answer: Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
.Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

[sndbay]

We don't believe we can make that judgement independently of the Church.

You see, the Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).


Therefore, since we can't judge but since the Church is infallible, the Church may judge:

Ephesians 3 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

Point of Interest:
The refer that you yourself have noted was a warning to the church. ( thou oughtest behave thyself )

KJV 1 Timothy 3:14-15 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


AND You say the church is infallible? I believe we will let God judge how infallible "YOUR CHURCH" that you put before us really is.

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

[sndbay]

I am simply going by Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture say that we must follow the Bible alone. In fact, it seems categorically to say we must follow the Church.

As for me, if I follow the Church it is because Scripture says so.

There are some who say the Church is spiritual and can't be found. But Matt 18:17 categorically states that we can find It. And we can hear it. And if we don't believe it and honor it, we must be treated as heathen.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Point of Fact: Matthew 18:17 has to do with if thy brother shall trespass against thee. And I do think the church is a servant to God in setting good moral for human character. They do that by ministering to God's Will.. Not man's! It is God's Word that is Jesus that has brought us forgiveness.. Not Man! Not the Church!

Yet you seem to be reducing the Word of God to Scripture. Whereas Scripture recognizes that the Word of God is passed on by word of mouth and by tradition as well as Scripture.

No it is not I that has reduce the Word of God.. It is you, and the authority you take liberty to place before me. Your conscience to believe that a church grants the children of God their judgement and forgiveness.. All power and liberty in my heart belongs to Christ.
I offer none of my own conscience / customs. As for church I am a christian, to follow Christ. I offer Christ and His Word. Again all power and libery to Christ forever and ever. Amen

Scripture speaks as the Two edged Sword cutting both ways because it is Christ, who is the Word of God.

1Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Romans: Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way

(authority) Liberty may cause stumbling to others. So what you do may cause someone else harm! And to what has it credited you?

This is why I offered scriptures.. From there it is up to God as to what each person's own pure heart of love for God will receive and hear.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.