[N0help4u]

Well it is YOUR hang up because we all know that when we state our opinion we do not have to say this is my opinion or this is my belief. I know I will never add it to anything I say because I do not see the need to express my beliefs or opinions with I believe or my opinion is... Just like I do not see the need to distinguish I love you. There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends I love you but not sexual love every time I tell them I love them

GET OVER IT! :)

[Credendovidis]

Well it is YOUR hang up because we all know that ....

Oh, you say you know... But do you also SHOW that properly ?
All I see here at this board is loads of Christian babble and claims, but when it comes to showing real support for all that there only is icy silence...

There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends I love you ...

How WRONG you are on that ! You should say that often, but - even more important - you should show that in your deeds just as well (if not more even), because if you don't do it that way, your words become just another load of easy hot air.

:rolleyes:

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[N0help4u]

You must love 'babble and complains' cause you keep coming back for more.

My statement WAS (before you dropped off the entire statement... There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends 'I love you but not sexual love' every time I tell them I love them. All I have to do is say I love you and it goes without saying it is not a sexual love.
So it is YOUR OPINION that I am WRONG!

[Credendovidis]

My statement WAS (before you dropped off the entire statement.....There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends 'I love you but not sexual love' every time I tell them I love them. All I have to do is say I love you and it goes without saying it is not a sexual love.
So it is YOUR OPINION that I am WRONG!

My statement was not wrong. You just make your posts just too complicated as that suits your purpose.
When we talk about love between people, that excludes logically sexual love, unless we express that part clearly.
Love has to be expressed frequently, but not only in word, but just as well in deed.
THAT is what I stated. Nothing else. That that does not suit you... that is your own problem, not mine...

My option is to go to the beach now where lot's of sunshine and a nice breeze is awaiting me...
Adios!

:rolleyes:

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[margog85]

Please, I didn't intend this to be a post for debate or arguments... I just wanted to know how people can believe in something they don't have conclusive evidence for... and if they do have evidence, what is it? How do they progress from feeling there is something more to understanding what that something more is and being confident about it, especially when there are so many ideas out there.

That's all.

[f104]

If God was all loving and all powerful there would not be suffering. If God is a father he is abusive and cruel. What kind of father would let his children starve? The only way you can justify such evil is by saying 'we have free choice' which is BS. Again if you are a parent and your child wants to cut their hand off with a knife are you going to let them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you say a loving God would let the holocaust happen? If the devil is involved why does God not stop him? If God is all powerful he should be able to stop Satan.

God is either all powerful and evil. Or he is not all powerful and loving. But no person in their right mind can say God is all powerful and loving but lets war happen because we choose to do so.

[N0help4u]

Sorry margog
I think the only thing we can say is evidence is our deep conviction for the most part.

You might like this link

Science and the Bible

[Wangdoodle]

Yes, I made a statement that I believe to be true. I live my life as if my faith is true. If I did not believe it to be true I would live my life differently. There are a number of reasons as to why I believe in God. However, I have not seen Him face to face, so to speak. I referred to the Scriptures because I accept the testimony of those eye witnesses, and their willingness to die for their testimony. Many people believe they were liars. I do not.

What the heck is faith all about? To me, it is about acting on what you believe to be true.
Like driving my car. I do not know with 100% assurance that when I step on the breaks they will work. I have, however good reason to believe they will. So, I act on this believe and drive. If I did not believe my breaks would work, I would not drive the car. This is how the Apostles and the first century Christians lived their life. They had faith in Christ that he would welcome them into Heaven at the end of their earthly lives.

[Allheart]

If God was all loving and all powerful there would not be suffering. If God is a father he is abusive and cruel. What kind of father would let his children starve? The only way you can justify such evil is by saying 'we have free choice' which is BS. Again if you are a parent and your child wants to cut their hand off with a knife are you going to let them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you say a loving God would let the holocaust happen? If the devil is involved why does God not stop him? If God is all powerful he should be able to stop Satan.

God is either all powerful and evil. Or he is not all powerful and loving. But no person in their right mind can say God is all powerful and loving but lets war happen because we choose to do so.

Hi f104 - Oh how the starving children weigh on my heart as well. But it is not God who allows it. It's you and I. Do I need as many clothes in my closet, or rooms in my house? NO, it's disgraceful on my part with so much hunger in the world. It's up to all of God's children to see that the hunger stops, that the war ceases. These things are not at God's hands but ours. Why doesn't God stop these things? He does and He will, once we enter His Kingdom, where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil.

If all negative would be wiped away with God's loving hands, this world would be endless, we would live forever on this earth, and earth is not where we ultimately are to be, we are to be home with Him.

[Credendovidis]

But it is not God who allows it. It's you and I.

With all respect : based on the Christian "God" and it's powers and demands : if "God" does not want little children to suffer, than they would not suffer , no matter what adults would do.
I assume the adults who mistreated the children would be annihilated on the spot.
But they are not annihilated, and many children keep suffering. The following conclusions can be drown (any one of these is/can be valid) :

- "God" does not have the power to annihilate those who do not follow his instructions.
- "God" does not care about the children and their suffering.
- "God" perhaps does not exist at all

Why doesn't God stop these things? He does and He will, once we enter His Kingdom, where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil.

That must be the worst clincher I have heard for days. Let's analyze this a little :

"Why doesn't God stop these things?" : See 3 conclusions above.

"He does and He will" : that is what you believe. But is it true? Why? You have any objective supporting evidence (OSE) for that ?

"once we enter His Kingdom... " : how convenient : nobody will ever return to confirm or reject .....

"where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil" : that is what you believe. But is it true? You have any objective supporting evidence (OSE) for that ?

4 different wild religious unsupported claims within one single A4 line sentence... Really...

If all negative would be wiped away with God's loving hands, this world would be endless, we would live forever on this earth, and earth is not where we ultimately are to be, we are to be home with Him.

"God's loving hands" allow children to suffer, starve from hunger, die from disease and war, drown in flooding, be torn into pieces and eaten by wild animals, etc. What a loving hands that are... Where I agree with you is that every human being is co-guilty on that.
That is precisely why I so often refer to every Christian's Mission, when it is here "word galore" but a "deed absence". The more some people THINK or HOPE they spread the word, the less they pass the word in their deeds...

Oh boy !

Allheart : you are kidding yourself with that... Are you so afraid for some hereafter and for some final judgment that you really believe all that cr*p ? I hardly can believe that you do... Have you lost all contact with reality ?

:(

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[Allheart]

LOL Cred, yeah reality really isn't my thing.

No Cred, I do not fear the after life not one bit. You have no idea what great joy it brings me that some of my love ones have that eternal peace.

Do I fear my losing entrance to the Kindgom of God - Yes I do. It's not a frightful fear,
But it's something I do want in my heart to be with God and with my loved ones once again.

You shouldn't think harsh of me because I believe with all my heart these things Cred. I am only sharing them with you. To be quite honest, that is my reality.

[Credendovidis]

I am only sharing them with you. To be quite honest, that is my reality.

I tried not to be harsh on you, Allheart. Sorry if that appears to be that way to you.
From me you may believe whatever suits you! But at least take the alternative (reality) also into option!

...but it's something I do want in my heart to be with God and with my loved ones once again.

I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead. Another reason for me to be an active Secular Humanist, and someone who communicates with the for him dear ones to let them know I love them. When I lived in Africa my mother died, and I had a hard time to get to terms with that (... IF I had written, IF I had phoned, IF I had... ) That was a hard lesson for the rest of my life, and I (try to) transfer that lesson to all that are dear to me. And therefore also to you! :)

You will never see anybody back, Allheart. You may believe that of course, but it won't bring them back in reality. Focus on what you can do now and on those who live now, and keep those who died with you in your heart.

(Another suggestion : Add a directory with photo's of all of those that are dear to you to "Documents and settings". Go to configuration panel and set display protection of your monitor to 60 seconds. Switch to slide show the photos in that directory) Wonderful !

:) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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[N0help4u]

From me you may believe whatever suits you!

I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead.

:) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

From me you may believe whatever suits you. It doesn't matter what you accept.
Stuff happens whether you accept it or not. When we die if you find out you are wrong
You will not be able to say whether you accept it or not.

[Credendovidis]

When we die if you find out you are wrong you will not be able to say whether you accept it or not.

As in so many times with similar responses I have stated: that is a clincher. There is no need for me to assume that possibility until the "hereafter" you believe in has been proved to exist in the first place... Pascal's wager has been dismissed many - MANY - years ago as an invalid proposition.

:D

·

[N0help4u]

I am not talking about you assuming or not assuming or believing or not believing.
I am talking end of life, you die, you find out there IS a hereafter.
IF there is a hereafter it does not matter if you accept that or not
IT WILL BE IF IT IS no matter what your thoughts or beliefs during your time on earth.

[Credendovidis]

IF there is a hereafter it does not matter if you accept that or not

Yes, sure. Than I better review my position towards eating pasta, as I have to be prepared to meet the Spaghetti monster also...

:D :D :D :D :D

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[asking]

. . . I better review my position towards eating pasta, as I have to be prepared to meet the Spaghetti monster also ...

:D :D :D :D :D

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And that's just the tip of the ice berg...
:D

[shatteredsoul]

The interesting part is.. YOU don't know what happens after death and neither does anyone else. BECAUSE you choose to believe there is nothing after this life, then that is a choice, and thus your perception. It isn't based on facts because there is nothing proven that says what happens after you die. YES your body dies, but there is energy within you and what happens to it is unknown. People may call it a spirit, or whatever but nonetheless it is energy that lives within us. I have never assumed or expected everyone to agree with my Opinion or belief of what happens, I have always made clear what my own perspective is, while still being respectful and aware of the way others think.
The sad part is, you mock and joke what you don't even understand. It really is ignorance at its best. I have never thought science or evolution, aren't real or true or even correct. I simply said that they don't have to exist without a realization of a greater force, energy, "GOD" or whatever you want to call it. They do not have to be mutually exclusive in order for each to exist.

You are just as hung up on your way of thinking as a religious zealot.
Whether you meet the spaghetti monster, or your creator is not something any of us will know or understand until it happens. JUST don't discount what you don't know because the energy that exists within everything living, GOES ON.. how that is interpreted and LABELED is different for each person.. THAT IS WHAT I mean.. I am not here to dispute scientific evidence but there are things that science cannot explain, universal mysteries of our solar system that cannot be explained, so don't think that your awareness of science and evolution explains everything because it doesn't. YOU just cannot think beyond it.

[N0help4u]

The interesting part is.. YOU don't know what happens after death and neither does anyone else. BECAUSE you choose to believe there is nothing after this life, then that is a choice, and thus your perception. It isn't based on facts because there is nothing proven that says what happens after you die. YES your body dies, but there is energy within you and what happens to it is unknown. People may call it a spirit, or whatever but nonetheless it is energy that lives within us. I have never assumed or expected everyone to agree with my PERSONAL opinion or belief of what happens, I have always made clear what my own perspective is, while still being respectful and aware of the way others think.
The sad part is, you mock and joke what you don't even understand. It really is ignorance at its best. I have never thought science or evolution, aren't real or true or even correct. I simply said that they don't have to exist without a realization of a greater force, energy, "GOD" or whatever you want to call it. They do not have to be mutually exclusive in order for each to exist.

You are just as hung up on your way of thinking as a religious zealot.
Whether you meet the spaghetti monster, or your creator is not something any of us will know or understand til it happens. JUST don't discount what you don't know because the energy that exists withing everything living, GOES ON.. how that is interpreted and LABELED is different for each person.. THAT IS WHAT I mean.. I am not here to dispute scientific evidence but there are things that science cannot explain, universal mysteries of our solar system that cannot be explained, so don't think that your awareness of science and evolution explains everything because it doesn't. YOU just cannot think beyond it.

EXACTLY!
They have N0 concept on what if they are wrong and DO have to face a judgment day when it will be T00 late and N0 talking their way out of it with their arguments.

[ordinaryguy]

Margog85 (may I call you margo?)--

Unless I missed it, you haven't said how old you are, but you remind me of my twentysomething self. I also was raised in the cocoon of The One True Church (different denomination, same concept), and found myself questioning and doubting more and more of what everybody around me accepted as being self-evidently true without comment, much less earnest discussion or soul searching.

What I admire most in your post is the unflinching honesty with which you are confronting your loss of belief. It takes a lot of courage to leave the group and strike out on your own as an individual. It isn't an easy path, and I have sometimes almost (but not quite, not really) envied the friends of my youth who stayed within the cocoon and made a life and career completely enclosed and encased therein.

I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

As far as I've been able to learn (and I have a Ph.D. so you can trust me on this), mathematics is the only field of human endeavor where "proof" is a meaningful concept. Oh, sure, lawyers throw the term around a lot, but there's always some qualifier, "beyond a reasonable doubt", "by a preponderance of the evidence" or some such logically squishy concept.

So if it's proof you really want, study mathematics. Everything else is inference and interpretation.

A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

If you can't, you can't, so stop wasting your effort and attention trying to do the impossible. Accept it, and let it go. There are far more useful things to do with your mind than worry over your inability to believe. I tend to think the difference between people in this regard is either genetic or very early (embryonic) developmental. Some brains are wired that way, some aren't. It can't be helped.

I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something...

There you go reminding me of myself again. Maybe we both have kind of a minimalist transcendental mind function. It seems like it would be much easier to either have none at all, or else to be fully connected. This having one foot on either side of the crack between the worlds can be unnerving, I'll vouch for that.

But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

Speaking only for myself, I have decided to treat this as is a problem that doesn't need to be solved.

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics.

Either they have a personal subjective conviction, (which you obviously don't have) or they take somebody else's word for it (which you apparently can't do). It's one of the many ways people differ from one another. People who would kind of, almost, like to believe the prevailing myths of their culture, but can't really, have probably existed nearly universally, but always as a minority, except possibly during times of great social upheaval.

I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

I would suggest that you reexamine your assumption that whatever-it-is is "out there" and fully approachable by means of observation and reason.

Your will directs your attention. Whether you direct your attention toward the inward, subjective realm, or into the outward, objective world, you will eventually encounter the boundary between Self and Not-Self.

Like every boundary, it's fuzzy if you examine it closely enough.

I wish you godspeed on your quest.