[plonak]

Very very true NeedKarma.. I'm mainly talking about healthy women who respect themselves.. the yknow what's best for them

[nuclear_sugar]

I know that it is not hopeless, and there are wonderful men out there. Unfortunately, the flowers are hidden by all the weeds. You just have to clean up your garden... Was that enough cliche'd metaphors for you?? He does exist. It just takes time. I've gotten myself a great one. We've been together for years, and we have a wonderful connection. Sure we argue... that is human... the thing is, when one of us is the antagonist, the other maintains calmness and reasoning. Somehow, it's like we take turns being unreasonable! Yet, we have a way with each other that just soothes out all the bumps, and a "fight" doesn't ever last. We communicate so openly that there is nothing lingering to fight over. And it is true what they say about holding hands. If the hands fit together, it's meant to be. Our hands fit like gloves. He does exist... don't give up...

[bigbird213]

that's like what i was saying it's all about the balance... guys really need to hear that!! it's the secret to what women want!!!!!

Not sure I'm a huge fan of the idea that the men need to do the work to attract the women... Sure, its work on both side,s but I hate to think the men need to put all the effort into attracting the women while the women sit back and watch - almost makes you wonder if its worth it :p

[sokay]

I think the key for me is that a 'real nice guy', to me, is one who is nice to me, not one who is nice to everyone in a need for approval and adulation, but one who treats me special. After all, I'm the one in the relationship with him, I think I should be more special to him than a bunch of random people.

[sokay]

I think the "nice guy" idea is crap.

EVERY guy that's ever dumped you or a friend unfairly (at least to YOUR mind) is a jerk, regardless his reasons for doing it.

I don't think so. I'm the one who dumped my ex, not him who dumped me. And he still wants me back and doesn't understand this concept.

[sokay]

Want to know how you can tell if a guy is nice "enough" to date long term? See how he treats his mother. You can tell a LOT from how a guy treats the woman who raised him.

Actually, it's not that black and white. He can be too much of a 'mama's boy'. I think the same concept here applies with the mother:

"BTW, this is why I have an issue with the statement that 'If you want to judge a potential mate, see how he treats service staff." It's just not that simple, and not that 'black and white".

I mean, sure, OBVIOUSLY, if they're unnecessarily MEAN to them, then that's a problem; but if they're unnecessarily NICE, that could be a problem, too!"

[Synnen]

Yes.. but if you see him treating her TOO nicely, you know THAT about him as well.

I didn't say that if he treated her nicely that he was a keeper--just that you learn a lot about a person from the way they treat their mother.

Same thing with service staff.

Courteousness is important regardless, as is respect.

[sokay]

Same thing with service staff.

Courteousness is important regardless, as is respect.

It really should go without even needing to be mentioned, that being courteous and respectful to others is important. That is obvious.

The thing a lot of people don't seem to grasp is there is a whole lot of gray-area between being *respectful*, and *schmoozing*, or putting strangers ahead of those close to you, who've invested their time in a relationship with you.

How about the ex-boyfriend that I had years ago: He had asked me to help him with something that day, and I said 'No problem'. So, I was out with him all day. I was so hungry. We went into a diner, and he proceeded to order himself lunch, and refused to buy me even a sandwich. I literally didn't have two pennies to rub together at that time, which he obviously knew, because I was struggling, working hard, as a full-time motel housekeeper.

But then when he finished his food, and I finished drinking my water, he made a big point of emptying out his pockets to the last penny in order to leave quite a generous tip for the waitress. His comment was, "She needs it. She works hard for a living." I thought, 'What, and I don't? ' No one left me tips. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'm sure the waitress thought, "Gee, what a NICE GUY he is!"

[plonak]

BigBird,

I wasn't saying that men have to do all the work to get the girl and that she can just sit back, it's just a secret to what women desire in a man.. doesn't have anything to do with working to get them, it's a characteristic trait that we admire

[gg23]

Of course I was not being serious... n don't think I am bitter... just trying to start something... nothing serious though... I like a strong women who is not a push over... but who can still be a woman if you know what I mean... not really into the too girly girls though...

[Synnen]

Sokay--how long did you stay with him after that? And did you tell him that his behaviour was unacceptable to you?

If you didn't leave him that week (or that DAY! ), and never told him how it bothered you--then you were as guilty as he was.

I would have walked out after he didn't buy me something to eat as well--since eating in front of someone when they're hungry as well is just rude. I'm sure that waitress saw the way you were interacting, and didn't have a whole lot nice to say about him in the end--waitstaff see more than more people realize.

So no--that's not a nice guy. But you learned a LOT about him from the way he treated those waiting on him: namely, you. You helped him with something, worked hard on his behalf, and he treated you like crap. And if you didn't dump him because of that instance--YOU let him get away with it.

I met my husband 12 years ago. The weekend I met him was pretty bad timing. I was coming out of a bad relationship, and I thought he was dating a friend of mine (SHE said they were dating, come to find out from other people that that was wishful thinking on her part--they just hung out together a lot). So... he thought I was a man-hating witch, and I thought he was an egotistical flirt with no respect for his girlfriend. We ended up hanging out quite a bit for the next 5 months--because we had the same group of friends. When I had a really rough day one day, enough to break down and cry, he was the one that took me out and helped me get through it, even though we weren't especially close. So... I would have said he was a jerk when we first met, but it turns out that he's really a great guy who won't be at any woman's beck and call--including mine, even as his wife. He does things for me because he likes ot make me happy, not because I need him to do those things to make me happy.

My best friend is a guy. He's a jerk. He'll admit that he's a jerk. He has no patience with stupidity or people who can not learn from their mistakes. A lot of the women who know him think he's a jerk because he won't play games--he'll tell them straight up why he won't go out with them, even if that's something you just don't SAY. Like--I can't go out with you, because the way you eat in the break room with your mouth open repulses me. Sounds like a real a$$ of a guy, right? Well, he's ALSO the guy who found out that one of the women at work had a sick kid, and her insurance hadn't kicked in yet, and her husband had just gotten laid off. He's the one that organized a very quiet drive for people to donate things to help her--food, clothing, diapers, formula, baby blankets, toys, etc--and left it for her in the break room, completely anonymously. He didn't want credit for helping someone, he just wanted to make it easier for her. So... is he a jerk? Or a sweetheart? This is the man who has, for an exgirlfriend who cheated on him, and who he hadn't had contact with in a few years, went and picked her up from her boyfriend's house, because she was too terrified to leave. And then told her that if she'd grow a spine and stop expecting men to make her happy, she would have been happy a long time ago. Dropped her at a women's shelter, gave her $100 cash, and told her to call him if she needed him--but that she'd better not go back to the jerk that was beating her or he'd beat her himself after smashing the guy.

So.. I don't think there is such a thing as a "nice guy". I think ALL guys are capable of being nice, but that women don't even really want a guy who's nice all the time. Nice is BORING. If he was always nice, and loved you adoringly, and never put himself first--that's called a dog, folks, not a nice guy.

So there are plenty of guys out there that will treat you with respect--but you can't be a princess sitting around and waiting for them to ride up in their armor, either. Try looking at the guys whose looks don't thrill you the first time you see them. Try looking at the guys who aren't smooth and suave and sweet the first time you meet. There are great guys everywhere--you just have to stop expecting them to ALWAYS be nice, while still expecting that they're going to treat you with respect---unless, of course, you do something to lose that respect.

[sokay]

Synnan,

I dumped him shortly thereafter, and yes, of course I told him he was treating the waitstaff better than his own girlfriend. His justification to himself? "I was just being a nice guy! I care about other people, and she works hard!" (As if to imply that *I* don't care about other people, and that *I* don't work hard. I just think my boyfriend should put me before a stranger. Yeah, dumped him, obviously. And it wasn't as if the rest of the relationship he was a perfect boyfriend anyway, so no big loss.

I'm sure in his own mind, he probably still thinks he's a really "Nice Guy". But that is no longer my problem.

[sokay]

Sokay--

So there are plenty of guys out there that will treat you with respect--but you can't be a princess sitting around and waiting for them to ride up in their armor, either. Try looking at the guys whose looks don't thrill you the first time you see them. Try looking at the guys who aren't smooth and suave and sweet the first time you meet. There are great guys everywhere--you just have to stop expecting them to ALWAYS be nice, while still expecting that they're going to treat you with respect---unless, of course, you do something to lose that respect.

Hon, if you knew me even the slightest bit, you'd know how very much I don't need this advice at all, as it does not apply to me.

[sokay]

Sokay-- you can't be a princess sitting around and waiting for them to ride up in their armor, either. Try looking at the guys whose looks don't thrill you the first time you see them. Try looking at the guys who aren't smooth and suave and sweet the first time you meet. There are great guys everywhere--you just have to stop expecting them to ALWAYS be nice, while still expecting that they're going to treat you with respect---unless, of course, you do something to lose that respect.

By the way, (since you're making false and groundless assumptions about me... ) have you taken your own advice? You know what they say, "One finger points out, the other three point back to you..."

[Synnen]

Look, I wasn't attacking you.

I was pointing out that "nice" isn't always good dating material, and that looking BEYOND nice is sometimes surprising.

I also don't think that most people WANT nice.

And I don't have to justify anything to you. I happen to KNOW I'm not a nice person. My husband actually LIKES that about me, and my friends are pretty content with my brutal honesty.

So... I was justifying my explanation that completely nice guys don't exist--which, I think, is exactly what you're saying. So where's the argument?

[sokay]

Look, I wasn't attacking you.

I was pointing out that "nice" isn't always good dating material, and that looking BEYOND nice is sometimes surprising.

I also dont' think that most people WANT nice.

And I don't have to justify anything to you. I happen to KNOW I'm not a nice person. My husband actually LIKES that about me, and my friends are pretty content with my brutal honesty.

So...I was justifying my explanation that completely nice guys don't exist--which, I think, is exactly what you're saying. So where's the argument?

No one said you were "Attacking me". What I did say is that you made false and groundless assumptions about me. If you'll kindly go back and read your post to me perhaps you'll understand why that is a fair statement.

You first say you think I should have dumped the guy on the spot for not buying my lunch, then turn around with a lengthy soliloquy regarding how you think I should alter my character, and my expectations about men, based, I might add, on *one* lone, story I told, which you agreed with, and which has nothing to do with my actual character, but is actually the *opposite* of it. (For instance: I'm frequently referred to as 'Soo Independant' and 'Self-Sufficient', and 'Down-to-Earth' by both men and women.

At any rate, at least make up your mind what your position is... Waffle much?

And also, I don't have to justify myself to you either, Synnen. Coincidentally, my friends also are content with me, lol. But that's OK, you can win the pissing contest if it will make you happy.

[Toluca_86]

Yes, I am not saying women should stay in relationships with jerks and expect anything to change. I am saying that even if a woman leaves a relationship as soon as she realizes he's a jerk, she's already been hurt. And it's not her fault.

sokay et al. I think some of you are defining "nice guy" completely differently than I am. I am not talking about a perfect saint, or a chivalrous "Prince Charming". I said I was defining a "nice guy" as someone who was straightforward, honest, and at all times considerate of others' feelings. That doesn't at all mean that the guy has to be a pushover. And it certainly doesn't mean he has to schmooze with other women.

Furthermore, you can see in my original post that I never asked anyone how to "fix" the "problem" (if there is indeed one). I was more just asking a basic question about whether my observation of human nature sounds familiar to other people as well? I'm not saying women are saints either, but seeing as I haven't dated them I can't really make an observation about how inconsiderate they can be to people they're romantically entangled with in some way...

[sokay]

sokay et al. I think some of you are defining "nice guy" completely differently than I am. I am not talking about a perfect saint, or a chivalrous "Prince Charming". ..

Ummm... I'm sorry, but, you got the impression I was saying they should be a perfect saint, because_____?

[talaniman]

I use to be a nice guy..!

[ISneezeFunny]

Then he came to AMHD and ran into the likes of me on the relationship thread.