[Capuchin]

So you think that when you flip a coin? God decides whether it lands on heads or tails? You believe in fate?

[shygrneyzs]

You are going to find those hypocrites in any religion, Christian or not. So instead of attacking the whole, why not just target the ones you actually know and ask them what their problem is? Just as you do not like to be covered in a blanket statement, I am sure someone else does not like that either.

[workcherrie]

I beleave that no one really knows and that you can beleave and it is great to beleave... no mater what its in but no one can say for sure and I like christions and I like most any and all religions I think that religion is a beautiful thing, it is just not for me.

[Capuchin]

Your viewpoint is very interesting :)

[workcherrie]

Haha yeah life dose that to you lol

[speechlesstx]

I'm not talking about it being logical to cut out God to explain sentient beings. (Don't take that as meaning I think that we need God to explain sentient beings). I'm talking about it being logical to cut out God to explain where the energy came from at the big Bang. These are separate issues

I don't believe they are separate issues.

You need to understand the bridge analogy for me to get any further with you. Humans do not have an innate understanding of statistics. In statistics, we expect the unexpected to happen. If the expected happened all the time, there would be no need for statistics, because every time you rolled a die, it would always land on the same number. That isn't the world we live in.

What? I thought we were talking odds, not statistics.

Just because you do not know how life evolved from molecules doesn't mean that it's impossible. The odds are low of getting a specific hand in bridge, too, but if you deal enough times, you will get it. The cards to determine if life will form have been dealt many many times since the beginning of the universe. However, It's generally thought that life had a high chance of forming, and probably formed many times before it finally thrived.

I never said it was impossible, I said from the beginning we don't know. But, it brings me back again to... what are the odds? At this point that's the only question I'd like to have answered.

[Starman]

I don't believe they are separate issues.



What? I thought we were talking odds, not statistics.



I never said it was impossible, I said from the beginning we don't know. But, it brings me back again to...what are the odds? At this point that's the only question I'd like to have answered.

Here is data I found in reference to your probability question:

Excerpt


The simplest conceivable form of life should have at
least 600 different protein molecules. The mathematical probability that
*just one* molecule could form by chance arrangement of the proper
sequence of amino acids is far less than 1 in 10^450. (The magnitude of
the number 10^450 can be appreciated by realizing that the visible
unuverse is about 10^28 inches in diameter). Ref2
³Even if we take the simplest large protein molecule that can reproduce
itself if immersed in a bath of nutrients, the odds against this
developing by chance range from one in 10^450 (engineer Marcel Goulay in
*Analytical Chemistry*) to one in 10^600 (Frank Salisbury in *American
Biology Teacher*).² ref 3

Beware of tricky atheist - sci.skeptic | Google Groups

A Mathematical Proof
of Intelligent Design In Nature
- by R. Totten - (c)1999

http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyK....roofcreat.html


These other two sources also provide much food for thought:

Abiogenesis -- Whence Came Life?

Scientific Evidence that God Created Life

[paraclete]

By your own statement you are against God. This places you in opposition to his people who are not judgemental but following God's requirements. You don't like this because it is like holding up a mirror to you and you don't like what you see. Get used to it

[Capuchin]

Statistics is the study of odds. I didn't know that you didn't understand this. I apologise. Let me put it this way: so far, for all the stages of life-from-molecules that have been studied, the probability is effectively 1.

Starman's calculations are based on many false premises. THey are not scientific. I do not give much credit to them at all.

[speechlesstx]

Statistics is the study of odds. I didn't know that you didn't understand this. I apologise. Let me put it this way: so far, for all the stages of life-from-molecules that have been studied, the probability is effectively 1.

Capuchin, I don't mean to be difficult but it seems you're avoiding the specifics of the question, which is what are the odds that the right chemical reactions and the right conditions would occur to organize these molecules and eventually become a human? I'm willing to bet it's enormously greater than bridge combinations or landing a golf ball on a particular blade of grass.

Starman's calculations are based on many false premises. THey are not scientific. I do not give much credit to them at all.

I can't say one way or another - which is why I was asking you.

[NeedKarma]

This just in:
Pope: Creation vs. evolution an ‘absurdity’ - Focus on the Vatican - MSNBC.com

"Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith."

"They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."

[Capuchin]

I've made this point several times. Please listen. Abiogenesis is determined by biochemical laws that we are still studying. Odds are meaningless. Biochemistry is not random.

[Capuchin]

This just in:
Pope: Creation vs. evolution an ‘absurdity’ - Focus on the Vatican - MSNBC.com

"Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith."

"They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."

I like how he states there is a difference between evolution and faith (cal, if you're listening :))

[inthebox]

Agree Capuchin:

To an unbeliever , Christianity is not "provable" and requires faith.

To me, a Christian and scientifically trained, evolution is NOT "provable" as the explanation for life and therefore believing evolution as such also takes "faith."




Grace and Peace

[Capuchin]

So by that logic, the pope believes that evolution is provable and is an unbeliever in Christianity?

[speechlesstx]

I've made this point several times. Please listen. Abiogenesis is determined by biochemical laws that we are still studying. Odds are meaningless. Biochemistry is not random.

Suddenly odds are meaningless? Was man predestined to exist?

[Lucas Ammons]

Guys, Guys! Science and religion actually complament each other. I'm a baptist. I beilive that god created all things and that he designed all life to adept to its surrondings, which are ever changing. Look up: divine design. Furthermore science says that all the living matter and non-living matter in the universe is made of recycled star gases. "And God formed man the dust of the earth, breathing into his nostrils the breath of life."-- Genesis. God means for all of us to live in harmony, I know its hard, I'm nowere near perfect neither of us is. We all have sins, Lord knows I done the same thing I'm preaching against. We have have not the power to change hearts only god does, so pray for a person that does not know god, talk to them but in gental manner don't try not to get puffed with how much you know, because in god's eyes we know next to nothing.

[ashleysb]

Back to the original post, here is some interesting information.

"Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America. The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.

The most recent study was conducted by the University of Minnesota, which found that atheists ranked lower than "Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." The results from two of the most important questions were:

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...

Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3% "

And with America being 75% Christian, where do you think the majority of these feelings come from?

Article from:
University of Minnesota Study on American Attitudes Towards Atheists & Atheism - Research Finds that Atheists Most Despised, Most Distrusted Minority

[speechlesstx]

Back to the original post, here is some interesting information.

"Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America. The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.

Don't get confused folks, that paragraph is purely the opinion of the author, Austin Cline. He has deduced an awful lot of hate, bigotry and prejudice from two questions. It is impossible to determine that from those questions. Who among you doesn't believe certain groups don't share your vision for America? Ask that first question of Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, socialists and capitalists. Who isn't concerned about who their kids marry?

[inthebox]

So by that logic, the pope believes that evolution is provable and is an unbeliever in Christianity?

From the same article the op linked to:


He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”



I think it is logically to believe that natural selection can over time change the shape and length of a bird's beak, but the THEORY of evolution does not explain how life or the universe began.

As to whether the Pope believe's in God and Jesus Christ, which I believe he does, you would have to ask him.



Grace and Peace