[dwashbur]

i don't have much time so I can only respond to this. Not once did I say that red was blue. (you know what I mean, I never once specified a specific colour to "red") I said it was open for interpretation. SO if I see the colour as red, you see it as fuchsia, it's open.

No, you're saying that red can be red or blue depending on one's interpretation. Once again, Jesus said he is the ONLY way. Either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground, nothing that's "open for interpretation." What part of "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time" don't you understand?

[Aurora_Bell]

What don't you understand about I am NOT debating JESUS. I am SAYING religion is OPEN for discussion.

[hheath541]

Um, you are aware that the Bible teaches there's only one, right? Jesus also taught that there's only one God. It's a consistent theme, and since his resurrection validates his words, it also validates his teaching that there's only one God. So since there's only one, yes, Jesus did say he's the only way to get to ANY god.

And yet the bible mentions other gods. Did the birth of jesus make those gods cease to exist?

Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.. . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Exodus 23:13
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Joshua 24:2
They served other gods.

Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

How many gods are there?

Edit:

You say, "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time." OK, then which is it? Either there is only one god, as stated in the bible, or there are many gods, as stated in the bible.

[Aurora_Bell]

Damn it Hheath I have to spread the rep.

[TUT317]

No, you're saying that red can be red or blue depending on one's interpretation. Once again, Jesus said he is the ONLY way. Either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground, nothing that's "open for interpretation." What part of "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time" don't you understand?

Hi Dave,

I think what Aurora Bell is getting at when it comes to colour is that perception of colour is different to thinking about colour. When perceiving there is an additional element (subjective) which is not involved when thinking about colour.

It is sometimes argued that there is a clear difference between seeing a red tomato and thinking about a red tomato. There seems to be an extra subjective element in the case of seeing.

When it comes to seeing it is difficult to say that my red is the same as your red. The x and not x might not be a good analogy in this particular instance.

Regards

Tut

[dwashbur]

and yet the bible mentions other gods. did the birth of jesus make those gods cease to exist?

Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Exodus 23:13
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Joshua 24:2
They served other gods.

Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

How many gods are there?

edit:

you say, "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time." ok, then which is it? either there is only one god, as stated in the bible, or there are many gods, as stated in the bible.

*yawn* Galatians 4:8. Isaiah 43:10. There are lots of things that are called "gods" by people in the Bible, but that doesn't make them actual deities. Elijah made this clear on Mount Carmel in 1 Kings 18. When Baal didn't answer he had a little fun: "where is he? Maybe he's asleep. Maybe he's on a trip. Maybe he's taking a crap. Call louder!" God makes fun of idols in Isaiah, where he talks about how a man cuts down a tree, uses part of it to burn and keep himself warm, and takes the rest and makes himself a "god" that he bows down to and prays to.

The Bible makes a lot more sense if you read the whole thing, not just the parts that you think support your notions.

[dwashbur]

Hi Dave,

I think what Aurora Bell is getting at when it comes to colour is that perception of colour is different to thinking about colour. When perceiving there is an additional element (subjective) which is not involved when thinking about colour.

It is sometimes argued that there is a clear difference between seeing a red tomato and thinking about a red tomato. There seems to be an extra subjective element in the case of seeing.

When it comes to seeing it is difficult to say that my red is the same as your red. The x and not x might not be a good analogy in this particular instance.

Regards

Tut

Fine, then call it wavelength in the red spectrum. That kind of hair-splitting gets us nowhere, and seems like nothing more than a weak dodge at best.

[Aurora_Bell]

What don't you understand about I am NOT debating JESUS. I am SAYING religion is OPEN for discussion.

Hmmm D, I like how you skirted this one.

[Kitkat22]

It's not anyone's place to judge another person. That is why it is so important to stop and evaluate yourself and by that I mean not just the people who are believers or non believers ,but who like me and you have different opinions.

Why do you have that opinion? Is there a hell? God Is there a heaven? I honestly know in my heart I would not be here today if it weren't for the grace of God.

Who in the world has not felt the goodness of God? You see his miracles when you look at your children or when you are at the lowest point in your life and he speaks in that still, small voice and it's so clear it is him you can almost reach out and touch his hand.

Hell is as real as the sun and the moon. Heaven will be more wonderful than anything you could ever imagine. There is one way to get to heaven, and one way to get to hell.

Unbelief is what will doom people to hell. Jesus says."my spirit will not always strive with man". By that he is saying, I will knock at the door of your heart... more than once and you may or may not ask me to dwell in your heart,
But if you you turn me away and keep saying I don't believe then one day I will not come back.

You can't be saved anytime you want too, the spirit of the Lord has to draw you and convict your heart, to let you know you are lost. God doesn't send anyone to hell. He gives them chance after chance.

He is a forgiving God and he weeps for the things, he sees going on in this world. It is his time now and I honestly believe we are nearing our heavenly home.

[dwashbur]

Hmmm D, I like how you skirted this one.

I didn't respond because it doesn't make sense.

[Aurora_Bell]

OK

[Donna Mae II]

I think religion is open for interpretation. I just can't fathom there being one way. Look at the way the "rules" have changed over time. I think no one will really know until the time comes.


Rules do change over time, but God's word never changes. The only thing that changes are rules made by man.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Jesus a liar, again, I think there is too much open for interpretation.


Jesus was and is the only person to walk on this earth who never sinned. Therefore he could never be a liar.

Be a good person, follow the Golden Rule, play nice and be fair, that's how I think you will get in heaven. One thing about God, who ever he is, universally he is loving, right? I think as long as you believe in something, just believing there is a higher power, makes you one step closer to Heaven. What ever, and where ever that may be.

Doing God's will is the way to heaven. If we don't study His word to learn what we must do, then how do we expect to get to heaven? God is a loving God. He does love us--all of us, but He expects us to love Him too. He says, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." How can we keep His commandments if we don't read His word to know what they are? Being a good person only, is not the way to heaven either "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."We are His children and He really loves us, we just need to show Him that we really love Him too.

[Aurora_Bell]

I have made peace with Heaven, and I've made peace with MY God. I stand by my beliefs. Maybe they are wrong, but maybe you're wrong too. Will I point my finger at you? No. Never. Who am I to judge?

I have asked for forgiveness, and I have asked for my own personal salvation. I am not going to do or pray to something I don't believe in. I know some of you are going to take that as me not believing. That is not true. I have MUCH faith. I am not so naïve and ignorant to believe MY religion is the only one. I never once debated Jesus.

If you REALLY want to know what I think about Christianity, I think is is one of the MOST barbaric of all religions.

O.k have at me.

[NeedKarma]

Hell is as real as the sun and the moon.

Actually it's not. The sun and moon are facts, hell is a belief.

[classyT]

Really? I don't remember this...

Sorry Bella, you weren't the one that repeatly said you were a sinner. I'm blamin my mistake on old age. Sorry girlie.. :)

[classyT]

one of the most basic teachings of christianity is that god gave mankind freedom of choice. by that reasoning, i have the right to choose not to believe in him.

i spent 18 years of my life as a christian. then i ended up having to reevaluate some major parts of my life. that eventually led me to reexamine my religion. i found out that i was only christian because people told me i should be. i didn't actually believe a lot of the teachings.

so, i went on a search for a religion i could believe in. i closely examined all the beliefs i already held true. then i researched religions until i finally found one that felt right for me.

if i'm wrong, then i'm wrong. i just don't think there is ONE religion that's right for everyone. the way i see it, there are three possibilities for the afterlife. either i die and find myself going to the afterlife of my current religion, the one i was raised in, or one unrelated to either. regardless of the outcome, i'll be dead and i see no reason to worry myself about it now.

I agree we are given free will and therfore the right to choose. When I asked the question do we get that CHOICE, I really meant to we get to pick another way to heaven if Jesus said otherwise?


Is God UNjust if he sends good, well intentioned people to Hell just because they chose a different path and reject what the Bible teaches about Jesus. For example : That he ( Jesus) actually became SIN for us on the cross and then God punished HIM instead of us and we now need to accept that by faith. Otherwise, according the bible, we die in our sins and then we are unfit to be in heaven, so we are sent to a devils hell. Is that FAIR?. Is God just or unjust for giving us a one way sign to heaven?

[hheath541]

I agree we are given free will and therfore the right to choose. when I asked the question do we get that CHOICE, I really meant to we get to pick another way to heaven if Jesus said otherwise?


Is God UNjust if he sends good, well intentioned people to Hell just because they chose a different path and reject what the Bible teaches about Jesus. For example : That he ( Jesus) actually became SIN for us on the cross and then God punished HIM instead of us and we now need to accept that by faith. Otherwise, according the the bible, we die in our sins and then we are unfit to be in heaven, so we are sent to a devils hell. Is that FAIR? ....Is God just or unjust for giving us a one way sign to heaven?

I guess those looking to get into heaven need to decide if they have to believe in jesus in order to get there.

I'm not looking to get into heaven. It's never really been something I wanted. I still remember the looks on everyone's faces when I told them I thought heaven sounded like a very boring place full of stuck up people and I wasn't sure if I wanted to go there. I was about 12-14 years old and it was in the middle of a lesson at church.

[classyT]

I have made peace with Heaven, and I've made peace with MY God. I stand by my beliefs. Maybe they are wrong, but maybe you're wrong too. Will I point my finger at you? No. Never. Who am I to judge?

I have asked for forgiveness, and I have asked for my own personal salvation. I am not going to do or pray to something I don't believe in. I know some of you are going to take that as me not believing. That is not true. I have MUCH faith. I am not so naive and ignorant to believe MY religion is the only one. I never once debated Jesus.

If you REALLY want to know what I think about Christianity, I think is is one of the MOST barbaric of all religions.

O.k have at me.

OK... you are in big trouble... I'm beating you up for that. Lol lol

Well, don't blame the barbaric stuff on Christianity. Blame it on stupid, evil people who kill in the name of Christ or Christianity. There is NOTHING in what Christ taught that was barbaric. Quite the opposite... Love your neighbor as yourself. Don't get more peaceful than that.

People pervert things for their OWN agendas... been happening for centuries.

[classyT]

i guess those looking to get into heaven need to decide if they have to believe in jesus in order to get there.

i'm not looking to get into heaven. it's never really been something i wanted. i still remember the looks on everyone's faces when i told them i thought heaven sounded like a very boring place full of stuck up people and i wasn't sure if i wanted to go there. i was about 12-14 years old and it was in the middle of a lesson at church.

LOL when I was really young... younger than 12 or 14. I thought heaven was going to be me sitting on a couch with Jesus in the middle a bowl of fruit on a coffee table in front.. and the rest of my family sitting there with me. In my minds eye... we all looked thrilled as a peanut. BORED me just thinking about it. I don't know where that came from either... I was really little 5 maybe.

You know hheath I think, could be wrong, that you are equating a heaven with a boring church service and holier than thou people running around. I wouldn't want to go there either, I already LEFT a church like that. :D

When I read what little is really mentioned concerning "heaven"... it is more than a place. And it sure isn't about "people". It is all about the Lord Jesus. When the thief on the cross looked at the Lord and ask him to remember him when he ( Jesus) came into his kingdom... Jesus replied something like this ,today you will be with ME in paradise.

I think it will be a literal place but more importantly is is going to be about being with HIM. The problem is... most Christians don't really understand HIM. ( not that I do either ) but GOD is LOVE, Light, HOlY... all those things in perfection... it must be awesome is all I know. The Apostle Paul actually was caught up in the third heaven and he put it this way... he saw "unspeakable things." I don't think he had the words to even articulate what he saw. He was torn, he wanted to stay on this earth to get people to understand the gospel of Christ and yet he wanted to be with the Lord. Paul said to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. Paul who got a glimpse of heaven was much more interested in the LORD of heaven. So.. I don't focus on heaven too much. My mind is finite and honestly can't comprehend the actual place.

( although I DO like to think about going through the buffet line at din din time and not gaining a pound... sorry off topic.. :D)

Whatever Hell is like, it will be the opposite, there will still be people, yes even stuck up ones... because they take their sin with them. BUT it will be absent of God. Actually it sounds horrifying... IF you believe the Bible... but if you don't... does it change anything?

[hheath541]

The vision of heaven I always got was more idealistic. I was taught that heaven is like earth, only more real. To me, that translated into a big outdoor place with trees and grass and open sky. Everything was just a little too bright and the colors were a little too vibrant. There were people everywhere, wearing light colored clothes. They were either just walking around enjoying the scenery or talking quietly in groups.

There were no arguments or differences in opinion. There were no child running around (I was taught that everyone in heaven is without blemish and in the prime of health, which generally meant in their 20's). Everyone was perfectly happy and loved everyone else.

You know what? I still think it's a boring place.