[cozyk]

[QUOTE=ETWolverine;1837400]

And as a sufferer of climical depression and consumer of Zoloft and Wellbutrin, I can tell from your post that you clearly have no idea what depression is, what it does to the human body and mind and how debilitating the illness is. It isn't "stupid stuff" and nobody suffering from depression WANTS to be suffering from it. I can assure you of that. Anti-depressants are a very important tool of the medical industry. That's not to say that they aren't abused by some... but then again, cough medicine can be abused. So can Ibuprofen. That doesn't mean that they aren't effective when used appropriately. In my particular case, I can tell you that without the anti-depressant meds I take, I would have died, pure and simple. Your statement on this point is rather simplistic and lacks an understanding of how the chemistry of the human body works.

I have to agree with you 100% here. I've been on zoloft for a few years now. Dysthymia was my diagnosis. Up until then, I suffered depression and anxiety about 90% of the time. It runs in my family actually and my sister put it perfectly one time. She said, " With zoloft, I still sometimes get blue, but I don't get black anymore." I would feel like the world was closing in on me. Like everything was dark except this tiny circle of light that I was seeing through. It's like having no peripheral vision and a HEAVY heart.

I agree that there are cases of abuse, but I also believe that they can be real life savers to people with serotonin problems. Brain chemistry is a real thing.

[ETWolverine]

excon,

Regarding your idea of just nationalizing the insurance but leaving the doctors and hospitals private...

... wouldn't that accurately describe the health care system on Native American reservations? The doctors are all in private practice and work for themnselves, but all medical care is paid for by the US Government. At least that is how I understand the system.

I will admit that I am not an expert on health care in the Native American community. I have one friend who is a doctor on the Rez in Mn, and I have heard his stories about how things work there, but I am not an expert in it. I just haven't done the research.

So, assuming that health care on the Reservations is as described above, what we need to figure out is whether health care among the Native American population is satisfactory or not. That would be a good indicator of whether your plan would work or not.

Here is a report on Native AMerican health care from Sept. 2004. I have NOT read it yet, but I think that the two of us should do so.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/nahealth/nabroken.pdf

From what I have scanned on just the first couple of pages, though, I think that such a system leaves a bit to be desired from the consumer's standpoint.

[excon]

Hello El:

Nahhh. We been sh1tting on the Indians for more than 300 years.

Comparing a system we built for people whom we've shat upon for a long period, probably isn't too comparable, doncha think?

Look. There are horror stories about state homes for disabled children going on right now... Why don't you bring THAT up as an example of what we're in for?? That'll sure scare some people, if that's what you want to do. And, that IS what you want to do, isn't it?

excon

[speechlesstx]

We been sh1tting on the Indians for more than 300 years.

And now we'll all be included.

[ETWolverine]

excon, no matter what anyone else says, no matter what evidence they present, you are just going to give reasons that their evidence is wrong or not applicable.

So why bother posting at all. You've made your point, you know you're right. Nobody can ever tell you otherwise, no matter how strong their evidence is. (And the stuff about Native American health care is pretty compelling.) So why bother with follow up posts? What's the point?

Yes, we've been sh1tting on them for 300 years. Probably longer.

So what? The Native American health care system was supposed to FIX all that. Just as your plan is supposed to FIX the problems of our health system.

What makes you think that the government that you believe cares so little for Indians is going to care so much more for a Jew from Seattle that they will get it right for YOU but not for the Indians?

A government that screws up health care for Native Americans, for military veterans, for old people and for poor people is NOT going to do any better a job for YOU or ME. You know that.

So why are you arguing to put the same government that cares nothing for Indians, screws up for vets, and bankrupts the health system for the poor, the old and the crippled, in charge for us?

Elliot

[excon]

that you believe cares so little for Indians is going to care so much more for a Jew from Seattle.

no matter what anyone else says, no matter what evidence they present, you are just going to give reasons that their evidence is wrong or not applicable. So why bother posting at all. You've made your point, you know you're right. Nobody can ever tell you otherwise, no matter how strong their evidence is.

Hello again, El:

Couple things.

Two Jews named Emanuel and Axelrod.

Next: YOU are as intractable as I am on these issues. However, me being the better person than you, would NEVER suggest that you don't post. In fact, I LOVE it when you post, so I can make a mockery of it.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

Couple things.

Two Jews named Emanuel and Axelrod.

Next: YOU are as intractable as I am on these issues. However, me being the better person than you, would NEVER suggest that you don't post. In fact, I LOVE it when you post, so I can make a mockery of it.

excon

First, I'm not suggesting that you don't post. I'm asking what the point is.

Second, the presence of Axelrod and Emanuel isn't doing anything for Obama's positions on Israel except to have Obama screw Israel all the more. Do you really think these guys are going to be any better for us on health care?

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

And now we'll all be included.

You said it, bro.

As my father likes to say, "Don't let 'em sh1t on your head. Open your mouth."

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

In fact, I LOVE it when you post, so I can make a mockery of it.

excon

I know that you enjoy rare things. So let me know when that happens.

Elliot

[galveston]

Let's take this to the limit of possibilities.

Gov says you need 3 flu shots. You object, but since your health is now the responsibility of some bureaucrat, you are forced to take the shots.

Red meat is not good for your health, so if you have any problems, such as high blood pressure, no more red meat for you.

High blood pressure is a common health problem, so you have to get a prescription to buy salt.

Diabetes is rampant. so sugar is placed on a restricted list.

I know that's pushing the envelope, but anything is possible when you give government liberty to meddle in your life.

If you think I don't trust our government, YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!

[excon]

Let's take this to the limit of possibilities.I know that's pushing the envelope, but anything is possible when you give government liberty to meddle in your life.

Hello again, gal:

I don't think you're pushing the envelope. But, aren't you the guys worried about how much all this health care is going to cost?

I would BET that cigarettes are going to be made illegal... And, rightly so. Unlike pot, cigarettes actually DO kill. About 300,000 die from lung disease, and about 150,000 die from heart attacks, every single year right here in this country. And, those deaths are directly attributed to cigarettes.

Hmmm. I wonder how much that costs us? I'll bet it's billions, wouldn't you? Do I think people should be able to smoke? I actually do. Should I pay for it? Nope, and of course WE ARE, and have been.

Do you want to keep paying for that? I don't. Don't you think, if the government is going to regulate drugs, that it should regulate the DEADLIEST DRUG OF ALL?

Are trans fats and sugar soon to follow? I don't know. How much does THAT cost us?

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, gal:

I don't think you're pushing the envelope. But, aren't you the guys worried about how much all this health care is gonna cost?

I would BET that cigarettes are gonna be made illegal... Instead of pot, cigarettes actually DO kill. About 300,000 die from lung disease, and about 150,000 die from heart attack, every single year right here in this country.

Those deaths are directly attributed to cigarettes. Hmmm. I wonder how much that costs us? I'll bet it's billions, wouldn't you? Do I think people should be able to smoke? I actually do. Should I pay for it? Nope, and of course WE ARE.

Do you wanna keep paying for that? Don't you think, if the government is going to regulate drugs, that it should regulate the DEADLIEST DRUG OF ALL?

Are trans fats and sugar to follow? How much does THAT cost us?

excon

Yep. And red meat. That's probably costing us a forture.

White bread is full of carbs. Got to get rid of that.

Corn is starchy, and becomes fat in the body. Can't have any of that.

Beer is a killer. People drive drunk all the time, and beer is full of fat.

Wait... while we're at it, cars are dangerous too. Driving is the number one cause of motor vehicle accidents. Got to ban cars.

Kids fall out of tree houses and break their arms and legs all the time. And they burn which causes forest fires. Got to ban trees.

People who read books, watch TV or work on computers have problems with their eyes. The cost of glasses and eye care is staggering. Got to get rid of books, TV and computers.

Cell phones have been linked to cancer. Got to get rid of cell phones. So we don't have to spend money on cancer meds.

Texting causes crackberry thumb. Can't have people texting.

If the government is going to save us money by nationalizing health care, we'd better be ready to allow them to control over ANYTHING that they can possibly say causes medical problems.

They're not going to stop with cigarrets, sugar and trans fats. They won't stop with red meat and donuts. Once the govvernment has the authority and ability to decide what you can consume, they will exercize that authority, and they won't STOP. And if you try to fight it, they throw you in jail or deny you your rights by denying you health coverage.

THAT is how soft tyrannies turn into hard tyrannies.

Just out of curiosity, excon, if the government decides to ban trans fats and you eat a trans fat, or decides that you shouldn't have climbed that tree and therefore they aren't covering you, would you be covered under the government health plan? Or would you be just as much without coverage as if you were uninsured?

The difference would be that in our current system even if you aren't covered by insurance, you can still buy health care. Under a government controlled system, if they decide you shouldn't be covered because you are persona non grata, there's no place to go to buy health care.

Elliot

[excon]

Just out of curiosity, excon, if the government decides to ban trans fats and you eat a trans fat

Hello again, El:

I smoke my trans fats thank you very much, and the government don't know nothing about it, see?

Now, I'm no fan of the government doing any of the above... Ceptin, I DO like the cigarette ban? Don't you?

Can you imagine it? As you pass by a dark alley, you hear a hoarse whisper "Nickel bags of Baccy here?

excon

[speechlesstx]

I smoke my trans fats thank you very much, and the government don't know nothing about it, see?

And soon we'll have black market health care, see?

[galveston]

Hello El:

I dunno WHEN, but here's how: the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution.

excon

US Constitution Amendment IX.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Boy, Ex, you are really good! No one challenged you on this one!

Please explain how this relates to health care? Or any other entitlement for that matter.

[excon]

Hello gal:

Well, I already explained how it had to do with gay marriage. So, you're probably not going to let me have more than one right out of that amendment...

But, the truth is, the Ninth Amendment simply says that there are other rights besides the ten listed. This, or frankly any other right that may become apparent in the future, can be found here. Are there right's that we haven't even discussed yet?? I don't know. We'll see. But, if we do, the Ninth Amendment is where it is.

excon

[excon]

Hello again gal:

I indulged you. Why don't you indulge me on the cigarettes?

excon

[Chey5782]

Ok of topic sort of, but didn't the military recently say there were going to implement no-smoking into the armed forces? Wouldn't that be almost the same thing you are talking about ex?

[excon]

Hello Chey:

Ahhhh, no. A smoking ban is a loooooong way from putting people in jail for smoking.

excon

[Chey5782]

Hello Chey:

Ahhhh, no. A smoking ban is a loooooong way from putting people in jail for smoking.

excon

Well dangit I was hoping you'd know more about that than me without my having to Google it. You are the worst anti-google search engine ever. *chuckles*


As for health care, oddly enough, my husband and I qualified for government health care because we are low enough income, he got a 50 dollar raise last Friday and it bumped us out of being qualified. Now to put me on his insurance it's 87.00 a week, and they only pay 80% instead of the 100% the government paid. And we were simply not expecting it. So now, financially, we're 37 dollars more in the hole every month. Not only that but because I am on his health care and it's pre-tax we qualify not only for health care for food stamps as well and HUD. It seems completely illogical to me, privatized health care eased nothing for us, and we're certainly not going to go get a bunch of other things we don't necessarily need.

I get tired of the corporate medium making choices like this for me, my husband likes his insurance, and for HIM it's awesome, but I HATE it. If I have to pay for it I feel as though I should have the right to choose my own insurance at least, and not be limited to the one option they provide, until march this year he had 5 options for insurers. I personally find it all confusing, and I am far too ignorant to make informed decisions about what is best at the moment. I don't want to be an average American who falls through the cracks. I want my MTV!