[starbuck8]

I am just sick! I'm just not sure what we can do about these poor dogs. I wonder who would listen? In the helicopter dog one, they are teaching that dog to fight, and not let go! I knew exactly what they were doing when I saw it. They could possibly have a fight ring, or take that dog to someplace else where there is one. So I believe we not only have a puppymill, but dogs that are being bred for fighting too. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[Alty]

I've been thinking about this all night. I have no idea what we can do. If this guy was in Canada it would be an easy decision for me, I'd go over with a few friends, big friends, and kindly convince him that what he's doing is wrong and he should stop, for the good of the dogs and his knee caps. Sadly he's not in Canada, so that's not an option.

There is a report button on that add, but all that will do is ban him from that site, it won't prevent him from doing what he's doing.

There has to be something we can do. If we can prove that he's breeding these dogs for fighting, or prove that he's running a puppymill, then we can report him to the authorities, but we need actual proof, not just our gut instincts.

Grrrr, I really want to take a bite out of this guy. Those poor dogs. :(

[linnealand]

Okay, thanks to all of you for backing up the bad feeling I've had about this.

if you haven't done so already, please do not contact the site or the seller. i don't want them to take that information off of the site.

I have been researching online to find a way to make a report with the proper authorities. The information I have describes the sale of puppies in NY under 8 weeks of age as illegal (and the breeder seems to be coming out of NY). I'm hoping that will give enough cause to start an investigation. I do believe there is more going on, and I hope that this part of the story will allow them to look deeper into whatever else might be going on.

I have contacted a law enforcement group connected to the treatment of animals, and I'm just waiting for them to get back to me.

Alty, I love that you're posting those pictures with that information! I think it's a brilliant idea. I think it would be great if you started a running thread for what you're doing. I know that all of us want to help those dogs. We might not be able to adopt them ourselves, but I'm sure that exposure could only go in their favor.

Again, thanks guys.

[Alty]

Linny, I'd like to get Judy involved, she's great with research and knows the law. How do you feel about that?

[linnealand]

I think the right people have been contacted. It's a law enforcement group connected to the ASPCA. Honestly, I think it would be potentially very dangerous to get involved in another way. This could very well be connected to pit bull fighting and/or be gang related. I have requested anonymity from the people I contacted. I do not want this to be drawn back to me.

[linnealand]

I did a lot of searching around before deciding who to contact.

This is the link where I ultimately made my decision: Reporting Cruelty FAQ

Where does the ASPCA have jurisdiction to pursue allegations of animal cruelty?

ASPCA Humane Law Enforcement officers are considered New York State peace officers. Therefore, they can investigate crimes against animals anywhere within the state of New York.

[Alty]

I agree Linny, that was my worry as well. I was going to write an email to them, asking some general questions, but decided against it for the very reasons you stated.

I hope that something is done about this. Bravo Linny, you should be very proud for taking a stand for these for dogs.

You may not get credit from anyone else, but I have to give credit where credit is due, and it's due my dear.

Big hug to you and your wonderful Linny heart, what would we do without you? Don't ever make us find out! :)

[linnealand]

So, I'm still waiting to hear from them. I don't know how long it will take. However, if I don't hear anything by the end of today, I'll send another email to them.

If anyone has any suggestions, it can't hurt to post them. Alty, if you did want to notify Judy, I don't see a problem with that. I don't know what else she could do though, other than notify the same kinds of people. I just don't want the seller to get scared off and remove the "evidence." he must know that it's illegal to sell 5 week old puppies. This might not be the first time he's tried doing this.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that we might have a better chance of getting the seller investigated if there were to be more voices behind the complaint. I don't have experience doing this, so I don't know if that would help or just be a pain to the ASPCA. Hm.

[Alty]

I'll let Judy know, she's great with this kind of stuff and she would be extra careful.

[starbuck8]

I just wanted to mention. I heard something the other day that really disturbed me. I don't have rock solid proof, but in the Michael Vick case, I've heard that the HSUS advocated for all of Vicks dogs to be put down. They said it was the "humane" thing to do. Well a judge disagreed... thank God... and let some rehabilitation groups take the dogs in. Most of these dogs were not mean, they were just literally scared to death! They of course, were beaten, abused, lived in deplorable conditions, and left without food or water. They were given electric shocks, used as bait dogs, used as breeder dogs when they were so mangled that they were missing limbs, eyes, ears, chunks out of their bodies, and half a face!

These rehab groups took them in, got them medical treatment, and the ones that could be saved, were! It took many months of daily rehab, but you could just see in their eyes that they just needed someone to love them, and they just weren't mean at all! They were just conditioned and trained by evil people that were money hungry and heartless egomanical people, that couldn't see the hurt behind their eyes.

I don't know if anyone watches the show "Dog Town," (on the National Geo channel... it's on Sunday's here in Canada) but in some of their episodes it shows the rehabilitation of Scumbag Vicks dogs. I believe if I'm not mistaken, that all but one of these sweet dogs, were placed in loving homes.

Also, if anyone has a Facebook page, go to "causes," and there is a pledge to "Keep Michael Vick in Jail." Both Alty and I already belong. I'm not sure how much good it will do, but ANYTHING I can do to help keep him in there much longer, I will give it a try! We don't need him back out on the streets in July! No way! Then again, I wonder how the reception of him will be when he gets there? He sure won't be the sports "hero" that he thought he was, that's for sure.

I'm just happy that the HSUS did not get their way, if these allegations are true, and that these dogs are now in loving homes. They deserved a better life, after the abuse they endured.

[JudyKayTee]

I'll let Judy know, she's great with this kind of stuff and she would be extra careful.

I am told that the people breeding the dogs in question have no past records; also, it is not an uncommon practice to force the dogs into sitting/standing positions for photos. Not saying in any way that this is appropriate or humane but that's the word that's filtered down to me.

[linnealand]

that was very kind of you, judy. Still, as I see it, the problem is not with the photos. The only thing the photos did was heighten my gut feeling.

one of the issues for me is the fact that the puppies are called "ready to go" at 5 weeks. From everything I've found, it's illegal to sell puppies under 8 weeks of age in the state of New York. Here's a link to a chart I found: Age to Sell Puppy Table

so I did some more snooping around yesterday, and I found some more information on the seller. He has a second litter on the site. Here is the link: [link removed for traceability]

I'm honestly wondering your opinions on the ears. It looks like stitches, probably from cropping. By the way, I am looking for information to find out if it's legal to crop a dog's ears if you're not a vet (because I found a person in Brooklyn who offers this service in a very sketchy way, and he certainly hasn't supplied any info that would make me think that he is a vet).

the second ad:
[link removed for traceability]
[link removed for traceability]

the name he uses describes his dog activities is as a kennel. I don't know what that means.

I also found the seller's myspace page. As you can see, it's all about pits. Well, that's not illegal. He's certainly allowed to have a passion for the breed. By the way, all of the dogs look healthy and well cared for. [link removed for traceability] what strikes me as odd is that everyone seems to have their own pit bull kennel. You have to excuse me for saying so, but these do not look like the kinds of guys who sell pets to nice families. They look like very tough guys.

I decided to click on the first friend on his list. (the list is set to random on his page.) after that, I randomly clicked on a video on that page. I would like it if you would take a look at that video. [link removed for traceability] to see the video, scroll down on the right side of the page to where the friends comments are. You'll see a comment made on December 14th from "[name removed for traceability]." now play the video with the subtitle of "[name removed for traceability]." it's the one with two guys and a dog standing in front of some metal bars. I would very much appreciate it if you would tell me what you really think.

I've been looking at a ton of connected pages and videos, and this pit bull world is huge. HUGE. I don't know what to say or do about it, but what I do know is that dog fighting deals in a lot of money, and it's often connected to gangs. If you can honestly tell me that you don't suspect there's anything seriously suspicious going on, I really, really want to know.

last night, after awaiting their response, I called the people from the ASPCA and spoke to someone directly about all of it. They told me that they don't deal with breeders, and they told me to contact the US department of agriculture. That includes the part about the 5 week old puppies being sold prematurely.

I am preparing an email now, specifying that a lot of what I'm sending them is based on speculation, but that I feel a moral obligation to at least pass what I believe are suspicious looking materials onto them, and that they can judge the situation for themselves. I'm not an expert in this, but I feel like I can't just ignore the feeling I have in my gut. At the very least, the 5 weeks/8 weeks issue looks to be illegal, and if it is, I wouldn't mind if it inspired a little more investigation into whatever else might or might not be going on. Obviously, I don't want to waste their time (or mine) either. If you think I should just drop it, or if you think I should or shouldn't be doing something here, say so. I'm not sending it yet. Honestly, I could use a little help here.

*links removed for traceability. i have kept a copy of the unedited post and the links. you can contact me if you would like further information.

[JudyKayTee]

I agree with you - I agree with everything you've said. The problem is proving it and, as I said, these "people" don't have criminal records.

I don't know if you realize it but my smaller dog is a rescue from a dog fight ring - she was a teaser dog. I know it's true, not urban legend, because a Police Officer friend of mine called me to say she had been seized, was I interested.

So, yes, these rings are all over. I run into them when I'm working, the dogs, the training equipment, the bloodstained rings. I walked into a house with a dead pit in a bedroom behind a closed glass storm door, starved to death. Half the litter was dead in the refrigerator; the other half in the freezer. I went outside and - no joke - vomited off the steps.

In NY you CAN sell puppies at 5 weeks. In fact, you could sell newborns if you wanted to. If that has been changed since the last time I did research, I'd like to know about it so if you find out, let me know.

Ear docking, I don't know, but I DO know non-Vets dock tails and crop ears, legal or not.

[linnealand]

I know there are a lot of links to follow in my last post, but it's the only way I know to share the info I have.

This is the chart I included in my last post on the legal age puppies must reach in order to be sold according to each state. As far as information on the internet goes, it looks more reputable than other sites might be. It says 8 weeks in NY according to McKinney's Agriculture and Markets Law § 402. Link: http://www.animallaw.info/articles/o...ysaletable.htm

If you don't follow any of the other links, just watch the video. I'm really, really looking for opinions. Do you think these guys are doing what I think they're doing?

The reason I think this instance is so worth reporting is especially because of the 5 week excuse. If the authorities suspect anything else, I assume that any excuse they can use to start an investigation could only help. What I don't understand is how this could be so big and go unrecognized. I do think this network is very, very big. Those myspace pages are FULL of these gangster looking (sorry, but it's true here) pit bull breeders and "kennel" owners. They're not sporting cockapoos.

Ugh, I wish people weren't capable of ever harming an innocent animal. Judy, your story was awful. I hope whomever was responsible is paying dearly for what they did. That's the kind of thing that makes a fire burning Hell sound like a good idea.

Please share your opinions with me. I want to send this letter. I think I just need a little moral support if what I'm doing is the right thing. If you think I'm making a mistake for whatever reason, please tell me why. I really want to know what you think, whatever it is.

[linnealand]

§ 402. Records of purchase and sale

Each pet dealer shall keep and maintain records for each animal purchased, acquired, held, sold, or otherwise disposed of. The records shall include the following:

1. The name and address of the person from whom each animal was acquired. If the person from whom the animal was obtained is a dealer licensed by the United States department of agriculture, the person's name, address, and federal dealer identification number. In the case of cats, if a cat is placed in the custody or possession of the pet dealer and the source of origin is unknown, the pet dealer shall state the source of origin as unknown, accompanied by the date, time, and location of receipt. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subdivision, no pet dealer shall knowingly buy, sell, exhibit, transport, or offer for sale, exhibition, or transportation any stolen animal. No pet dealer shall knowingly sell any cat or dog younger than eight weeks of age.

...

(this is for another conversation, but it looks like you need a license to be a "pet dealer" in NY. I wonder what that means in terms of backyard breeding in general. Edit: this is also interesting. I know many people feed their dogs once a day (which I never thought was a good idea). Legally, you have to feed them at least twice a day in NY. "(b) Animals shall be adequately fed at intervals not to exceed twelve hours or at least twice in any twenty-four hour period in quantities appropriate for the animal species and age, unless determined otherwise by and under the direction of a duly licensed veterinarian." lots of things for another time.)

[Silverfoxkit]

Something is definitely very wrong here and I'm behind you 100% linny! These poor babies deserve much more then what they are getting, and even if they aren't fighters the puppies still need someone to speak up on their behalves and say "hey, !" what harm will reporting them do? Either they aren't fighters just bad owners and breeders then so they'll get a headache, and if they are fighters then you will be helping to bust a fighting ring and saving those puppies from a blood soaked future and the dogs from an agonizing life.

[starbuck8]

Linny, unless Judy has a reason that you should not send that letter, in good conscience, I couldn't NOT send it! I can't think of a reason not to do it. If it saves even one dog, then it's well worth it to me!

You've done a hell of a good job looking up all of this info. and that is a wonderful thing for you to do! That must have taken a lot of your time, and I applaud you for doing the research, and caring so much about these helpless dogs, as we all do.

Thank you Linny for taking the time to try and protect these innocent dogs from these thugs. It's been proven that anyone that abuses animals to this extent, will also likely physically abuse people, which doesn't in some cases end well, as we all know. So this is a two fold thing. It could not only save the lives of dogs, but human lives also!

Edit:: Judy, your story had me sobbing! That is just... oh I don't even have a big enough words or a way to express myself! :(:mad::mad::mad:

[tickle]

We all know and realize this goes on and on and on. Dogs, puppies are abused, children are sexually abused as young as a year old and this is penetration sexual abuse and doesn't that get your mind working ! When that football player was caught with a ring, dogs (pit bulls, manchester terriers, whatever one wants to call them), breeding, dogs buried in pits, etc. and he got his computence. He thought he was invincible, made millions playing football ( don't follow football so forget his name). And now he is ruiined.

Why does all this happen in Virginia (where that football player had is home/dog commune/breeding ground/area of absolute hell) Is it because the farms are so remote that they are not easily spotted, or there rules are lax regarding this type of horrible procedure.

You guys are never going to be able to even scratch the surface and I know you would love to. You are only a splash in the pond, and maybe not even that.

Send all the letters you want, do all you want. There won't be any repercussions from anyone about this because they are too subversive to even care.They laugh at authority. This is just too little for the bigger issues going on.

Judy knows.

[Alty]

But Tickle, Michael Vic (the football player you were talking about) thought he was above the law. If everyone had sat back, done nothing, then would he be in jail?

It may just be a splash in the pond, but that splash sends ripples. Get enough splashes and you may make a wave.

I know what you're saying, but I for one cannot just sit back thinking that my voice won't make a difference, I have to speak out. Will any of us change the world? Probably not. Will puppymills and fighter rings be forever obliterated because of us? Probably not. Can we sit back, watch, but do nothing? Definitely not!

It may be in vain, nothing may come of it, but, in the end, at least we tried. You can't make a difference by just hoping, you have to act, let the chips fall where they may, hope for the best.

The world won't change unless everyone who feels a passion for something speaks out and acts.

::clunk:: getting off my soapbox now. ;)

[tickle]

Alty, you have a good soapbox. Keep it up. But I stand by what I wrote. If you want me to make a splash from here, sobeit, let me know. I WILL SPLASH! I MAKE BIG SPLASHES!! Heck, and I can swim too ! Luvya, girl.

Tick