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Allheart · Feb 13, 2008, 07:30 AM

It is a tough call in some cases. Sorry, didn't mean to refer to your ways as torture.

Some thoughts to think about. Thanks for responding Tom.

I still think we are better both as humans and with skills. But I guess I fall back on the fact that I have never been in that arena and there is nothing "normal" about any of this, so I guess I am back to that gray area.

Only think I know for sure if they did it to one of ours - I would not like it a little.

Thanks again

excon · Feb 13, 2008, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I think he makes a valid point in that it is not as black and white an issue as you make it appear to be.

Hello tom:

He does have a valid point. Nonetheless, it IS black and white. When it comes to the law, I’m a black and white guy. If you’re not, you’re on a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by tomder55

The proof is in the results . KSM was the lead man on the 9-11 plot . With this technique that did him no harm he started singing like a canary in 30 seconds

I don’t deny that it causes people to “sing”. I simply suggest that we give up our humanity when we do that to people.

Speaking of that slippery slope, if torture’s cool, where do we stop? Why shouldn’t we torture a drug dealer? Don’t we want him to “sing” too? Are there not some things we just won’t do?

excon

Dark_crow · Feb 13, 2008, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Allheart:

I offer the following for your edification.

In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding called the “water treatment” on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

For that act, Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

Others who were found guilty of the “water treatment”, including the officers who directed the torture and those who carried it out, were guilty of war crimes. Some were executed.

The bottom line is that when the “water treatment” was practiced against our side, it was called a war crime. Now, we justify its use.

excon

One important point you overlook is he was carrying out a form of water boarding on a U.S. civilian. There are many things that can be done in addition, such as beating.

Skell · Feb 13, 2008, 05:15 PM

That's what I want to know. Where do we stop. Why not torture the human trafficer to find out where he buys his people from?

Galveston1 · Feb 14, 2008, 06:45 PM

What happened to our soldiers in the past keeps getting brought up. These were soldiers, wearing uniforms. They were NOT terrorists. Anyone caught behind enemy lines in disguise is considered a spy and can be shot upon apprehension without violating any war codes. Terrorists pose as civilians while they do their dirty work. They are not entitled to the same protection as an identifiable enemy combatant. Don't let your emotions get in the way of common sense. Additionally, there have been no charges of brutality or decapitation on our part. The "torture" stories published here (against our troops) are about as severe as a college hazing.

George_1950 · Feb 14, 2008, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Galveston1

What happened to our soldiers in the past keeps getting brought up. These were soldiers, wearing uniforms. They were NOT terrorists. Anyone caught behind enemy lines in disguise is considered a spy and can be shot upon apprehension without violating any war codes. Terrorists pose as civilians while they do their dirty work. They are not entitled to the same protection as an identifiable enemy combatant. Don't let your emotions get in the way of common sense. Additionally, there have been no charges of brutality or decapitation on our part. The "torture" stories published here (against our troops) are about as severe as a college hazing.

Common sense, or koolaid? Galveston1, you are exactly right; some believe the constitution is some kind of "ideal", when, in reality, it was a great work of 'common sense'. Thanks for returning to that theme and what President Bush is trying to do: protect the constitution and its believers.

CaptainRich · Feb 14, 2008, 07:21 PM

I get disgusted by lable-ization. You sit in our tiny life's coffers and think you can determine what justice should look like for people's and ideal's that have so little to do with our world now... some of the carp I see here is posted by political trolls! You know if I am referring to you. Hit me. Who cares??
Some claim to have higher knowledge... "You (righty's or lefty's... doesn't matter coming from foriegn quadrants) are swayed by main-streem media..."
Does one who assert's this have some kind of psychic powers that enables them to be within the confrontation? Enables them to "see" what drives either side to staunchly fight for what "they" see to be right, just and correct??
If you don't live in the LIVE world, you are simply a spectator, too. Like the rest of whomever, you will pick what you want to see and believe. The rest is left to rhetoric. Every side has what is deemed to be correct and decisive.

If you don't have every bit of info, from every aspect of what is going down, at any given moment, you are the same spectator as the next guy, Aussie, Canadian, French, Venezuelan, etc... it's all the same, if it doesn't cross your borders. Pretty damn easy to b!tch when you have so damn little at stake. However, if you claim to have some prior knowledge, or some kind of abby-normal "vision", then you are invited to a board, beyond this one, that is far more intested in what you "know" or "see" than those of us here!

Flying Blue Eagle · Feb 14, 2008, 09:02 PM

TO ALL THAT HAS GIVEN THERE THOUGHTS ON THIS THREAD - TO day in the news I read what a ex.POW said about what the 6and he stated that they weredoing worse to our pow's over there, and they deserve every thing they get. Galveston1 & Allheart - Allheart you said in your last post Quate- If they did it to one of ours ,:: YOU WOULD NOT LIKE IT A LITTLE! Questions? WHAT WOULD YOU DO " IF " IT WERE YOUR BROTHER OR FATHER?? > WHAT about the americans they have alreadytortured & then ( BEHEADED AND HUNG UPSIDE DOWN UNDER A BRIDGE? WHAT ABOUT THE NON Military NEWSMEN& WOMEN THAT THE SAME THINGS HAS HAPPENED TO?? AND ALL THEY WERE DOING WAS REPORTING THE NEWS!! ::: SOME OF YOUALL NEED TO TALK TO SOME VETERANS FROM KOREA & VET NAM < ASK THEM WHAT THEY KNOW AND SOME HAVE :::? THE way I see it is that someone has to serve in the military, more so at a time of war to really understand, I TAKE IT THAT YOU ARE IN YOUR 20's AND NEVER SERVED IN THE MILatary:::: GOOD LUCK & GOD BLESS::: F.B.E.

Skell · Feb 14, 2008, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainRich

I get disgusted by lable-isation. You sit in our tiny life's coffers and think you can determine what justice should look like for people's and ideal's that have so little to do with our world now....some of the carp I see here is posted by political trolls! You know if I am refering to you. Hit me. Who cares?!?!
Some claim to have higher knowledge.... "You (righty's or lefty's... doesn't matter coming from foriegn quadrants) are swayed by main-streem media..."
Does one who assert's this have some kind of psychic powers that enables them to be within the confrontation?? Enables them to "see" what drives either side to staunchly fight for what "they" see to be right, just and correct?!?!
If you don't live in the LIVE world, you are simply a spectator, too. Like the rest of whomever, you will pick and choose what you want to see and believe. The rest is left to rhetoric. Every side has what is deemed to be correct and decisive.

If you don't have every bit of info, from every aspect of what is going down, at any given moment, you are the same spectator as the next guy, Aussie, Canadian, French, Venezuelan, etc... it's all the same, if it doesn't cross your borders. Pretty damn easy to b!tch when you have so damn little at stake. However, if you claim to have some prior knowledge, or some kind of abby-normal "vision", then you are invited to a board, beyond this one, that is far more intested in what you "know" or "see" than those of us here!

If you don't like it your free to spectate elsewhere. After all that's is all you are here. A spectator. You've made your feelings of me clear in the past simply because I don't agree on everything you feel. You get riled up anytime anyone dares question the US's policies. Perhaps your better of staying away from the political boards and stick to Cars and Trucks where it seems like you're the No. 1 man and everyone agrees with you. Its politics. We spectate. We observe and we comment. No one implies that they are smarter than the rest
Of us or know everything.

If you have a problem perhaps you could participate in the conversation rather than just b1tch that people don't know what they are on about.

Allheart · Feb 14, 2008, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Flying Blue Eagle

Galveston1 & Allheart - Allheart you said in your last post Quate- If they did it to one of ours ,:: YOU WOULD NOT LIKE IT A LITTLE !! Quetions?? WHAT WOULD YOU DO " IF " IT WERE YOUR BROTHER OR FATHER?????? >.

Hi Flying Blue

I promise you.. it's me not you... I have been havng an understanding problem all day, mabye all week...

I stated if it were done to ours (meaning American troops and Allies)... I would be :mad: FURIOUS... If it were my brother or Father... the same... Furious.

But I have said in other post, that I don't feel qualified to voice an opinion as I have never been in "theater". In the heat of the battle. Of course, my heart does not want any human tortured, but again, it is so hard and I guess on this thread I go back and forth. I just don't know... I still think we are more talented and skilled then to have to resort to physical discomfort, pain, torture whatever the name applied.

CaptainRich · Feb 15, 2008, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Skell

If you dont like it your free to spectate elsewhere. Afterall thats is all you are here. A spectator. Youve made your feelings of me clear in the past simply because i dont agree on everything you feel. You get riled up anytime anyone dares question the US's policies. Perhaps your better of staying away from the political boards and stick to Cars and Trucks where it seems like your the No. 1 man and everyone agrees with you. Its politics. We spectate. We observe and we comment. No one implies that they are smarter than the rest
of us or know everything.

If you have a problem perhaps you could participate in the conversation rather than just b1tch that people dont know what they are on about.

I do tend to stick to the cars and trucks board when I wish to speak with authority. That is because I am an authority when it comes to automobiles.

Who here is an authority on US policy?

I don't now nor have I ever insinuated that I was qualified or informed enough to do anything more than just opine here about policy. That is why I usually just spectate. Now you want to tell me I can't have an opinion on their opinion.
While it's true that you and I don't agree on everything, who does! With me? With you? With anybody?
I come in here to learn what knowledgeable people are thinking and seeing about what is going on in the news. The trend I see stems from some who deny that there is any good in US policies. They tend to be defeatist and negative. That is my observation and my opinion. You have no right to tell me I can't read this board.

Allheart · Feb 15, 2008, 06:15 AM

Do you know who I would love to hear how they feel about this? Those who were directly effected by 9/11.

We all were in one way or another, even all around the world I am sure, but those who were in those buildings, or lost a loved one from this attack, I wonder what they feel and think.

Has anyone heard what any of the direct victims are saying?

George_1950 · Feb 15, 2008, 12:55 PM

I hope the Democrats in the US Senate, considering reauthorizing the wiretap of overseas calls, are hearing plenty.

Galveston1 · Feb 15, 2008, 06:15 PM

Pelosi and crew, gone on vacation.

George_1950 · Feb 15, 2008, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Galveston1

Pelosi and crew, gone on vacation.

They have phones.

Flying Blue Eagle · Feb 16, 2008, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Galveston1

What happened to our soldiers in the past keeps getting brought up. These were soldiers, wearing uniforms. They were NOT terrorists. Anyone caught behind enemy lines in disguise is considered a spy and can be shot upon apprehension without violating any war codes. Terrorists pose as civilians while they do their dirty work. They are not entitled to the same protection as an identifiable enemy combatant. Don't let your emotions get in the way of common sense. Additionally, there have been no charges of brutality or decapitation on our part. The "torture" stories published here (against our troops) are about as severe as a college hazing.

Galveston1 {QUATE) - The" torture stories" published here ( against our troops) are about as severe as a college hazing. I bet a doola to a donut that if you were in the shoes of one of our troops that was getting the so called ( HAZEING ) you would be screeming and WOULD HAVE DIFFERENT THOUGHTS ABOUT THEIR TORTUREHAVE YOU BEEN IN THE Military YET?? >:::: When my oldest son turned 18 he joined the air force served for 8 years, he was in combat communcation squadren, he was one of first to go over and was 50 miles from the IROQ BORDER ,this was durning Desert storm , then he was one of the last to come home. NOW# His son (MY GRANDSON) JOINED LAST AUG>

George_1950 · Feb 16, 2008, 09:16 PM

God bless 'em, Flying Blue Eagle; may God bless all of them.

Skell · Feb 17, 2008, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainRich

Who here is an authority on US policy?!

Certainly not me which is why I tend to stay out of 99% of threads on american politics. However should that thread delve into world politics / issues then I will voice my opinion should I see it worthwhile.

All I'm saying is that rather than complaining about people for sharing an opinion you don't agree with, prove them wrong or give your opinion why they are wrong. Don't just call them silly names because they are sharing their opinion on an opinions board.

Have a nice day! :)

Galveston1 · Feb 18, 2008, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Flying Blue Eagle

Galveston1 {QUATE) - The" torture stories" published here ( against our troops) are about as severe as a college hazing. I bet a doola to a donut that if you were in the shoes of one of our troops that was getting the so called ( HAZEING ) you would be screeming and WOULD HAVE DIFFERENT THOUGHTS ABOUT THEIR TORTUREHAVE YOU BEEN IN THE MILTARY YET???? >:::: When my oldest son turned 18 he joined the air force served for 8 years, he was in combat communcation squadren, he was one of first to go over and was 50 miles from the IROQ BORDER ,this was durning Desert storm , then he was one of the last to come home. NOW# His son (MY GRANDSON) JOINED LAST AUG>

I didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that the stories published here claimed that our troops were guilty of torture, although the pictures and stories could more appropriately describe hazing. I don't believe our people are torturing anyone. If they had, you can bet our liberal news reporters would have told us about it for months.