[ActionJackson]

1)The only ones who conclude that, are other Christians,
2) the non-christians who do outnumber christians
3) just as fervent in there own belief being god sent,
4)I present the possibility of finding athiest among other planets, before you'd find christians,

1) You are probably correct.
2) Ants outnumber elephants. What's your point?
3) Depends on your belief. If you are an atheist, I doubt that you believe that your belief is God sent since you wouldn't believe in God.
4) That comment is purely inane.

[talaniman]

2) more people believe that Christianity is not god sent
3)they may believe in the sun as their deity or rocks or whatever, the point is they could believe in anything
4)the probability of finding unbelievers in god is greater than finding Christians on another planet.

My whole point is that no belief system is any better or worse than another, its all in perspective, so as man meets others from other worlds, who are different in thinking, belief, or way of life, he must be tolerant, and not offend, or the bug eyed aliens may get mad, and destroy him, because they indeed can run faster with 6 legs as he can with 2. TA-DAAAAH!!

[talaniman]

Quote=Capuchin-I'd just like to correct some of the terminology being used in this thread. "Other solar systems" makes no sense. It's called the solar system because it's the planetary system around Sol, our sun.
There are many suns in the universe with planets that revolve around them, They said so on Star Trek.
I'm not sure I agree with you talaniman on the atheism on other planets front, if there is a greater being, surely other intelligent beings would have a similar inkling that we seem to have about what created the world.
What if they are way smarter and know how the universe was created? I can only assume that, but if they can zoom all over the place in their saucers, they know a lot more than we do.
Of course, if you're saying that God is a human construct, then it's a product of the way our minds have evolved that makes us susceptable to religious thinking, and other beings may not have that kind of wiring.
I agree we are bound on this planet, and thats all we can come up with to explain what we see, hear, and feel.
I think intelligent life on other planets is almost certain given the statistics of the situation and what we have observed so far.
Me too!! ;)

[ActionJackson]

[QUOTE=talaniman]1) more people believe that Christianity is not god sent
2)My whole point is that no belief system is any better or worse than another,QUOTE]

1)In a place called Jonestown, somewhere in South America, more people believed in Jim Jones than disbelieved him. As a result, the majority of the members of his group committed suicide. You could have 100 blind people standing at the top of a cliff. A smooth talking individual could convince 75 of them that by walking straight ahead 100 paces that they would be able to see again. The 75 walk straight ahead and fall off the cliff to their deaths. The point is that just because a majority of individuals believe a certain way doesn't mean that it is the correct belief.
2) There is only one truth. You could have a tall pine tree standing on top of a hill. One group of people could believe with all their heart that it is an oak tree. Another group could say, no, it's a poplar tree. Another could believe that it's poisen ivy and the last group would believe that it's a pine tree. You have 4 different belief systems. The members of all four groups are really nice people who smile a lot. Which group is correct? Since the tree is a pine tree, then ONLY the group who believes it's a pine tree is correct. Therefore, the "better" system of belief is the correct system of belief for truth is better than a lie.

[Capuchin]

There are many suns in the universe with planets that revolve around them, They said so on Star Trek.

You're missing my point here, our sun is called Sol, that's why we're in the solar system. There are no other solar systems because the other stars aren't called Sol...

[talaniman]

Quote=ActionJackson[quote=talaniman]1) more people believe that Christianity is not god sent
2)My whole point is that no belief system is any better or worse than another,QUOTE]

1)In a place called Jonestown, somewhere in South America, more people believed in Jim Jones than disbelieved him. As a result, the majority of the members of his group committed suicide. You could have 100 blind people standing at the top of a cliff. A smooth talking individual could convince 75 of them that by walking straight ahead 100 paces that they would be able to see again. The 75 walk straight ahead and fall off the cliff to their deaths. The point is that just because a majority of individuals believe a certain way doesn't mean that it is the correct belief.
Agreed. lambs can be led to slaughter because they know no better. Should we believe anything on the say so of ones who make claim to know whats best? Or should we responsible for our own action. (Some had to be forced at Jonestown, at gunpoint)
2) There is only one truth.
But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
You could have a tall pine tree standing on top of a hill. One group of people could believe with all their heart that it is an oak tree. Another group could say, no, it's a poplar tree. Another could believe that it's poisen ivy and the last group would believe that it's a pine tree. You have 4 different belief systems. The members of all four groups are really nice people who smile a lot. Which group is correct? Since the tree is a pine tree, then ONLY the group who believes it's a pine tree is correct. Therefore, the "better" system of belief is the correct system of belief for truth is better than a lie.
I don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.

[talaniman]

You're missing my point here, our sun is called Sol, that's why we're in the solar system. There are no other solar systems because the other stars aren't called Sol...

Your right as the systems are referred to by the name or designated number of the star. I stand corrected.

[ActionJackson]

talaniman "should we responsible for our own action."B]
Action You're kind of missing the point. The point is: just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't make it so. A majority of people can believe that a man who died in his basement died as a result of breathing fumes when, in reality, he died of black mold spores. The truth was hidden from view but it was no less true and the majority belief didn't make it less true. Yes, we should all be responsible for our own actions.

Action "There is only one truth."
talaniman But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
Action However, the elephant was still an elephant. If we equate the elephant to the God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, then your analogy suggests that different people come to Jesus Christ via viewing Christ from different perspectives i.e. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. In a similar sense, the pine tree would still be a pine tree whether you looked at it at sunrise, sunset, from the north or from the east from near or from far. No matter what the perspective, it would still be a pine tree.

talanimanI don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.[/QUOTE]
Action. That wouldn't be too difficult. I would simply show you what poison ivy looked like, what a poplar tree looked like, and what a pine tree looked like. If you still chose not to recognize the pine tree on the hill as being a pine tree, then I would simply move on and seek someone with ability to recognize truth.

[talaniman]

Quote=ActionJackson-talaniman "should we responsible for our own action."B]
Action You're kind of missing the point. The point is: just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't make it so. A majority of people can believe that a man who died in his basement died as a result of breathing fumes when, in reality, he died of black mold spores. The truth was hidden from view but it was no less true and the majority belief didn't make it less true. Yes, we should all be responsible for our own actions.
And we should investigate to get the facts. And not assume because someone says so.
Action "There is only one truth."
talaniman But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
Action However, the elephant was still an elephant. If we equate the elephant to the God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, then your analogy suggests that different people come to Jesus Christ via viewing Christ from different perspectives i.e. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. In a similar sense, the pine tree would still be a pine tree whether you looked at it at sunrise, sunset, from the north or from the east from near or from far. No matter what the perspective, it would still be a pine tree.
Why not equate the elephant to the muslim God or the Jewish God or the martian God, its stll God isn't it?? Its still a matter of perspective.
talanimanI don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.[/quote]
Action. That wouldn't be too difficult. I would simply show you what poison ivy looked like, what a poplar tree looked like, and what a pine tree looked like. If you still chose not to recognize the pine tree on the hill as being a pine tree, then I would simply move on and seek someone with ability to recognize truth.
We agree a pine is a pine, and God Is God, that's our perspective, but would it be realistic to think an alien would understand our perspective, or we his????

[ActionJackson]

Action You're kind of missing the point. The point is: just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't make it so. A majority of people can believe that a man who died in his basement died as a result of breathing fumes when, in reality, he died of black mold spores. The truth was hidden from view but it was no less true and the majority belief didn't make it less true. Yes, we should all be responsible for our own actions.
And we should investigate to get the facts. And not assume because someone says so.
You're clearly arguing for the sake of arguing with no interest whatsoever in arriving at the truth. Once again, you completely miss the point by a mile. Your original post used the argument that sense non-Christians outnumber Christians that Christianity must somehow be incorrect. My argument is that just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't mean that their collective belief is correct. If you can't agree with this simple and elementary conclusion then I am clearly wasting my precious time.

talaniman But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
Action However, the elephant was still an elephant. If we equate the elephant to the God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, then your analogy suggests that different people come to Jesus Christ via viewing Christ from different perspectives i.e. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. In a similar sense, the pine tree would still be a pine tree whether you looked at it at sunrise, sunset, from the north or from the east from near or from far. No matter what the perspective, it would still be a pine tree.
Why not equate the elephant to the muslim God or the Jewish God or the martian God, its stll God isn't it?? Its still a matter of perspective.
Because we were discussing Christianity and the Christian God, Jesus Christ. Why would I even consider (as you routinely seem to do) changing the subject midstream? What's more, the Christian God is not the same as the Muslim god or the Jewish god. The list of guidlines (laws) that non-Christians believe that their gods have given them are contrary to the Laws that the Christian God has revealed to them. The Jewish god denies Jesus Christ (the Christian God) and the Muslin god believes that the Christian God (Jesus Christ) was just a prophet but no more than a mortal man. The Christian God (Jesus Christ) on the other hand, claims in Scripture that He is God. Major contradictions between the various religions; therefore, the gods/God of the various religions are not equal because they are contrary.

talanimanI don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.[/quote]
Action. That wouldn't be too difficult. I would simply show you what poison ivy looked like, what a poplar tree looked like, and what a pine tree looked like. If you still chose not to recognize the pine tree on the hill as being a pine tree, then I would simply move on and seek someone with ability to recognize truth.
We agree a pine is a pine, and God Is God, that's our perspective, but would it be realistic to think an alien would understand our perspective, or we his????
It wouldn't matter what the alien's perspective would be since truth is truth whether we're on earth or on a distant planet. A pine tree on earth if uprooted and placed on another planet would still be a pine tree.

[Capuchin]

We agree a pine is a pine, and God Is God, that's our perspective, but would it be realistic to think an alien would understand our perspective, or we his????

It wouldn't matter what the alien's perspective would be since truth is truth whether we're on earth or on a distant planet. A pine tree on earth if uprooted and placed on another planet would still be a pine tree.

I'm agreeing with Talaniman here. What if they have exactly the same organism as a pine tree on their planet, they even call it a pine tree. But instead of what we do: leaving it to grow, then cutting it for fuel. The aliens use the trees to grow their young inside, as an incubator, until birth. For this reason, pine trees are sacred to these aliens.

Even though it's the same organism, our and their view on what a "tree" is is completely different. We're all "How on EARTH do you grow your young in a pine tree?" and they're like "How on OMICRON PERSEI VIII do you think it's okay to cut down a pine tree to use for fuel? And secondly how do you get any energy out of it?". They might as well be completely different.

[talaniman]

You're clearly arguing for the sake of arguing with no interest whatsoever in arriving at the truth. Once again, you completely miss the point by a mile. Your original post used the argument that sense non-Christians outnumber Christians that Christianity must somehow be incorrect. My argument is that just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't mean that their collective belief is correct. If you can't agree with this simple and elementary conclusion then I am clearly wasting my precious time.
Why are you mad because I don't believe your point of view and do not accept it as the only truth??? I am not a christian and my relationship with the Creator is a personal one, and has nothing to do with your beliefs. Your assertion that the majority is not always correct, I have agreed with that premise. I also assert that if the majority is wrong, that doesn't make the minority correct.
Because we were discussing Christianity and the Christian God, Jesus Christ. Why would I even consider (as you routinely seem to do) changing the subject midstream? What's more, the Christian God is not the same as the Muslim god or the Jewish god. The list of guidlines (laws) that non-Christians believe that their gods have given them are contrary to the Laws that the Christian God has revealed to them. The Jewish god denies Jesus Christ (the Christian God) and the Muslin god believes that the Christian God (Jesus Christ) was just a prophet but no more than a mortal man. The Christian God (Jesus Christ) on the other hand, claims in Scripture that He is God. Major contradictions between the various religions; therefore, the gods/God of the various religions are not equal because they are contrary.
There is only one God, so it logically follows that the names may change but God does not. whether on Earth, or Jupiter.

It wouldn't matter what the alien's perspective would be since truth is truth whether we're on earth or on a distant planet. A pine tree on earth if uprooted and placed on another planet would still be a pine tree.[/quote]
Seeing the aliens perspective, would help you understand him, so he doesn't just see you as his next meal. Your entitled to believe what you want, am I????........................................or do you see my perspective as unworthy, because it conflicts with YOUR truth???? Relax its only a debate.

[Capuchin]

I guess the only way that aliens on another planet could be Christian, is if Jesus is some sort of Inter-galactic astro-ambassador. :)

[ActionJackson]

I'm agreeing with Talaniman here. What if they have exactly the same organism as a pine tree on their planet, they even call it a pine tree. But instead of what we do: leaving it to grow, then cutting it for fuel. The aliens use the trees to grow their young inside, as an incubator, until birth. For this reason, pine trees are sacred to these aliens.

Even though it's the same organism, our and their view on what a "tree" is is completely different. We're all "How on EARTH do you grow your young in a pine tree?" and they're like "How on OMICRON PERSEI VIII do you think it's okay to cut down a pine tree to use for fuel?? And secondly how do you get any energy out of it?". They might as well be completely different.

Heck, you don't have to go to another planet to have different perspectives concerning pine trees. You've heard the term "tree huggers" (they're people from other planets that came here to hug trees) and you also know that lumberjacks chop pines down all the day long. Two different perspectives but the pine tree remains a pine tree. If someone on a different planet raised their young in the pine tree, they might look much like the woodpeckers that we have on earth for all I know but the pine tree would still be a pine tree. Someone on Planet Amox I Auggeneva might eat pine with their eggs in the morning and drink distilled pine sap in the evening but it would still be a pine. Perspective doesn't change what something actually is. It might change how a person or "being" feels toward a thing but it doesn't change the thing.

[ActionJackson]

I guess the only way that aliens on another planet could be Christian, is if Jesus is some sort of Inter-galactic astro-ambassador. :)

And you know for sure that He's not?

[Capuchin]

I didn't say he was or he wasn't..

[Capuchin]

It might change how a person or "being" feels toward a thing but it doesn't change the thing.

And you're saying that what we feel about something doesn't define what it is? I disagree.

[ActionJackson]

And you're saying that what we feel about something doesn't define what it is? I disagree.

If you "feel" that a 1968 GTO is a goddess of love and I "feel" that it's a goddess of hate, it will still have the same 4 tires; the same paint job; the same engine; etc. It will still be a 1968 GTO. Your feelings nor my feelings are going to transform it into anything other than what it already is.

[Capuchin]

My argument is:

Our feelings are our only source of information.
People have different feelings.
Therefore: The information that different beings are using is different, the reality is different, the 1968 GTO is different.

Maybe how our feelings shape our reality aren't so different between you and I, Jackson, but surely you can see how someone blind from birth will have a very different view of the world. How do you explain the difference between red and green to someone with red-green colorblindness? How do you explain the difference between a baseball and a tennis ball to a sonar-dependant bat? How does a tetrachromat describe to you and I the extra colors that they see? How do synesthetes describe the way that they see the world? How does an alien describe to you the difference between 2 identical (to you and I) 1968 GTOs, when one is obviously "farble", but the other is quite clearly "borble".

Reality is subjective, it's what we make it, things are different to each of us, because all we have to go on are our FEELINGS.

[cal823]

feelings are still important, how one feels towards another person, to you, that person can be the most important thing in this world, in this mortal existence, while to others, she could just be another random person. how you feel towards things is very important, because it drives you, affects every decision you make, hell, it can even affect who you are. Reality be dammed, all i know is what i see, hear, touch, etc. and feel. what something is is unimportant to me, in comparison to what it is to me.