[paraclete]

I come from the great state that Mark Foley represented. How's Florida doing?

I don't know what it takes to get in Tal's report but on these statistics, not much better

Spotlight on Poverty and Opportunity

I guess you could say things are tough all over

[Oliver2011]

When we stick to old rituals and policies it's no wonder. Bailing out newspapers? What? Print media had it's day. I used to love the Sunday paper, but it's not needed now. And seriously why is mail delivered 6 days a week? I couldn't tell you how much a stamp is because I don't use them. And one last point - I love hearing politicians talking about not building more refineries and drilling because it would take 10 years to get a return. Well had we done it 30 years ago we'd be 20 years ahead.

I want a forward thinker to lead, not just in the White House but in Congress as well. Scale back Government, let the people choose how to spend their money, and everything else falls in place.

*stepping off the soap box now...

[paraclete]

When we stick to old rituals and policies it's no wonder. Bailing out newspapers? What? Print media had it's day. I used to love the Sunday paper, but it's not needed now. And seriously why is mail delivered 6 days a week? I couldn't tell you how much a stamp is because I don't use them. And one last point - I love hearing politicians talking about not building more refineries and drilling because it would take 10 years to get a return. Well had we done it 30 years ago we'd be 20 years ahead. I want a forward thinker to lead, not just in the White House but in Congress as well. Scale back Government, let the people choose how to spend their money, and everything else falls in place. *stepping off the soap box now...

Oliver you won't get forward thinkers in government. Politics is about retaining the status quo, keeping the good times rolling for those who bank roll the politicians. You can't let people choose how to spend their money, who would invest in a new road, a new aircraft carrier? No they would spend it on a swimming pool. I don't know why a business must get a return in ten years from an asset that lasts fifty, that is the kind of thinking that gets us what we have got today, lots of rich people who don't want to invest. The people who get a bailout are those who have politicians in their pocket. Industries do fail and disappear, not many saddliers about these days and farriers are no longer in vogue but these things may come again if there is no fuel for the automobile so extraction is important at least for the next hundred years. What you have to do is ease the industries into reconstruction, newspapers give way to electronics, extractive industries to nuclear power. But we need to stop dreaming because that revolutionary technology is probably not available tomorrow. Change is incremental, the car after 100 years still has four wheels and an engine powered by oil, the plane still has two wings and engine powered by oil. They are bigger, they are better and more reliable but the concept hasn't changed. The same goes for just about any everyday object. We have thousands of graduates from universities and not a fresh idea among them, the real innovators didn't wait to finish their course.

[Oliver2011]

Should people who don't pay taxes (file) get a right to the decisions made in this country/right to vote? Give more than 50% free money, cell phones, etc, and the country is done. We almost fell over that cliff in the last 7 soon to be 8 years. With the flat or fair tax the Federal Government gets their monies and others do as well because everyone is paying taxes assuming you buy something and everyone gets a vote. Plus you lose the political organization that targets people, the IRS. Unfortunately those that run for office run for their legacy and not the country.

[paraclete]

So you would like to return to the days of laise faire capitalism when only the rich had any say in the running of the country, these were days of destitution for the poor. Welfare keeps the economy going because these people spend every penny they get, unlike the rich who hoard their wealth. Without it you would have anarchy and revolution and yes such people should have a say in the running of the country after all it was built on their backs. Your view is born out of a nation that finds poverty objectional as if it is a disease, rather than a social ill created by capitalism.Every person should have employment and someone has to have the responsibility for creating it and that comes from responsible representative government not some upper class utopia. I have heard this flat rate tax argument and it always comes from the rich, those who have plenty of income and want to keep it. How flat should the rate be before it becomes a burden to be avoided. 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%. The principle of taxation in itself is a problem. When I was young the rate of tax an ordinary person might pay was 10% and the top rate was 97% imposed on the very wealthy of whom there were few. Today that same person might pay 30-40% and there are many rich who pay less than 50% but no one with a low income pays tax. Has employment increased? Have the number of poor deceased? I would abolish income tax for a consumption tax of 25% and no exemptions, so companies pay it as well as individuals, however the poor would need to be compensated for the extra cost by an increase in welfare payments otherwise it is unfair. What this does is put the tax burden where it belongs on those who have the greatest spending power and those who at the moment are able to avoid tax. I expect your flat rate tax argument just fell flat

[tomder55]

Welfare keeps the economy going because these people spend every penny they get, unlike the rich who hoard their wealth.

huh ? Around here the rich spend prolifically .They also contribute $millions on philanthropy ,advancing culture ,medical reasearch etc. Every time a JF Kerry purchases a big a$$ yacht it makes jobs . My boss is rich . He likes to make money ....lots of money . He also hires over 600 people just on the business that employees me .... and I can only guess the total number of people he employs. You are smarter than that class envy b.s.
Again ,Oliver is right on. A flat tax or a tiered flat tax is the way to go. This progressive tax system favors rent seekers . Yes the poor get their crumbs from it ;but the real beneficiary are the ones who can hire the best tax accountants.
I say make the rates as flat and low as possible ;and fire most of the IRS employees .

When I was young the rate of tax an ordinary person might pay was 10% and the top rate was 97% imposed on the very wealthy of whom there were few

so of course you use taxation for social engineering instead of paying for the business of the government . Figures . You are not telling us the facts if you think the top tiered people really paid taxes at 97% or anywhere's near that . They'd all 'go Galt ' on you.

[paraclete]

A flat tax or a tiered flat tax is the way to go..
I say make the rates as flat and low as possible ;and fire most of the IRS employees .

What do you think a tiered flat tax is other than a progressive tax system

so of course you use taxation for social engineering instead of paying for the business of the government . Figures . You are not telling us the facts if you think the top tiered people really paid taxes at 97% or anywhere's near that . They'd all 'go Galt ' on you.

Back in the day it was a conservative government who thought that way, it took a socialist government to reform the system, the result being of course that the workers paid more and the rich paid less and of course still do.

Right now we have a tax system which is inadequate to meet the needs of the country thanks to that social engineering, any of this sound familiar?

There is more than one side of the equation and someone has to pay for the aircraft carriers, the production of which enrich you know who. I don't know about you but I don't need any more aircraft carriers. We have industry that has migrated to asia thanks to low tarrifs and FTA's, our social engineering only benefited the chinese and so did yours, courtesy of our patriot capitalists

You keep raving about flat tax as if it were an economic panacea but the answer is actually to collect some tax. What is the latest statistic on how many in your nation actually pay tax? You need a tax system that actually is based in truth and not fiction because the one you have is fiction because of social engineering. Start by eliminating all deductions and allowances and then you can talk about reforming the rates and impact on various groups

[talaniman]

An economy built on servicing rich guys and leaving crumbs where they please doesn't sound like an economic model for the WHOLE population, and yes we see rich guys spending prolifically buying politicians and lawmakers to service them also.

Nor does restricting voters to just those who qualify based on how much they pay in taxes, or if they can afford an excellent accountant. I get kissing the boss's butt though, natural if he gives you a paycheck as well as a few crumbs, but get real, if he can make a buck laying you off he sure the hell will, and then whose butt will you look to apply your lips too?

Yeah give the rich guys more money and see who pays for the bridges, roads, and schools, where YOU live.

[tomder55]

Tal I have no illusions about my relationship . He can increase my pay ,reduce it ,lay me off . It's all his call. I on the other hand can quit and work for someone else .When I was on the assembly line ,or cleaning dishes ,or any of the other more upleasant jobs I've done I always understood the relationship. Nothing forces bosses to hire me ;and nothing forces me to remain if I don't like the terms .
What I have seen is the work the bosses do to succeed ;and that is something I would not be willing to do. That is why I don't own a business.My boss also raises a fortune every year sponsoring charitable events . He puts in the time and he fronts the money . My boss did not start out being able to purchase a big a$$ yacht . He worked his tail off to get to that point . I've also worked for bosses who put in the work and ended up losing their shirts . That's the risk I was not willing to take . So excuse me if I think they deserve what they get . I don't think he or anyone else should be paying anywheres near 50% of their income in taxes let alone 97% .

What do you think a tiered flat tax is other than a progressive tax system


Back in the day it was a conservative government who thought that way, it took a socialist government to reform the system, the result being of course that the workers paid more and the rich paid less and of course still do.

Right now we have a tax system which is inadequate to meet the needs of the country thanks to that social engineering, any of this sound familiar?

There is more than one side of the equation and someone has to pay for the aircraft carriers, the production of which enrich you know who. I don't know about you but I don't need any more aircraft carriers. We have industry that has migrated to asia thanks to low tarrifs and FTA's, our social engineering only benefited the chinese and so did yours, courtesy of our patriot capitalists

You keep raving about flat tax as if it were an economic panacea but the answer is actually to collect some tax. What is the latest statistic on how many in your nation actually pay tax? You need a tax system that actually is based in truth and not fiction because the one you have is fiction because of social engineering. Start by eliminating all deductions and allowances and then you can talk about reforming the rates and impact on various groups

Like I said ;the progessive tax system with the myriad of exclusions ,deductions ,exemptions is tailor maid for rent seekers of all income levels .

[paraclete]

Again you avoid the point, you cannot get rid of what you have short of revolution, too many vested interests. There are some things we know do not work and tax above a certain level is one of them even if Sweden gives the lie to that. The progressive tax system works if it is not fiddled with to allow avoidance or to advantage a particular group. First principle; the poor, low paid and those receiving government payments don't pay tax. It is a waste of time having them file returns. Second principle; Truth in assessment. No loop holes. Third principle; Enforcement. Fourth principle; Fair rates with a ceiling that doesn't create disincentive. Fifth principle; collect tax at the point of income or expenditure

How many of these principles does your system ignore?

[tomder55]

"the proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state."(Marx and Engels ); a“heavy graduated income tax” is a salient feature of the Communist Manifesto .

[talaniman]

WOW, 30/40% as a top rate with loopholes up the ying yang for rich guys is hardly a heavy graduated income tax.

I mean dang Tom, a rich guys can pay less than 10% income taxes and get to hide dough all over the world! Thats AFTER 10 years of Bush's tax cuts through a recession!

That doesn't sound like communism at all, JUST SAYIN'!

No roads, bridges, or schools, jobs, or living wages, but plenty of off shore and Swiss bank accounts (lets not forget the yachts and private jets). there ain't no pie left after a rich guy comes to dinner, so forget the crumbs, they ate that too!

[talaniman]

Or are you hiding the truth?

"The rich will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the masses, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state that he bought; a“ free market capitalism” is a salient feature of the Rich Guy Manifesto .

[paraclete]

It is interesting that Tom should be familiar with the communist maifesto, I suspect he is a scholar of Mien Kempf too! The only manifesto I follow is the common sense manifesto. We all live in the country and we all have a responsibility to pay for the amenities that are provided for our benefit. If we live in a representative democracy and most of us do, but Tom doesn't, we accept that we have put in place a government to make decisions which include taxes and expenditure and our part of the compact is to pay taxes according to our means. Tom would have those with no means pay a disproportionally heavy levy on the basis that this is fair to him. This is the me first manifesto

[tomder55]

WOW, 30/40% as a top rate with loopholes up the ying yang for rich guys is hardly a heavy graduated income tax.

I mean dang Tom, a rich guys can pay less than 10% income taxes and get to hide dough all over the world! Thats AFTER 10 years of Bush's tax cuts through a recession!

That doesn't sound like communism at all, JUST SAYIN'!

No roads, bridges, or schools, jobs, or living wages, but plenty of off shore and Swiss bank accounts (lets not forget the yachts and private jets). there ain't no pie left after a rich guy comes to dinner, so forget the crumbs, they ate that too!

under my tax system there would be no loop holes ...so with all due respect ;mine is the "fairer" means of taxing .

It is interesting that Tom should be familiar with the communist maifesto, I suspect he is a scholar of Mien Kempf too! The only manifesto I follow is the common sense manifesto. We all live in the country and we all have a responsibility to pay for the amenities that are provided for our benefit. If we live in a representative democracy and most of us do, but Tom doesn't, we accept that we have put in place a government to make decisions which include taxes and expenditure and our part of the compact is to pay taxes according to our means. Tom would have those with no means pay a disproportionally heavy levy on the basis that this is fair to him. This is the me first manifesto

Yes I am familiar with all the doctrine of those I oppose including your gradual Fabian destruction of liberty in favor of the decrees nanny state .

[NeedKarma]

Fabian destruction of liberty in favor of the decrees nanny state .

It almost sounds intelligent but means absolutely nothing.

[tomder55]

whereas I'm sure your comment is meaningless and irrelevant .

[paraclete]

I am not a Fabianist Tom in fact I vote for the conservative side of politics but that is not the rabid right wing approach you espouse. You cannot have the tax burden fall on those least able to pay it. Tax cannot be imposed in isolation to other factors and creating a situation where government gives with one hand and takes with the other doesn't work because many things lag behind cost increases. The answer is strong economic activity with as many in work as possible. You cannot incentivise those job creators of yours through the taxation system as has been done and giving them a low flat rate tax won't incentiveise them either because their decision making isn't based on tax. Look at your basket case economy. You have zero interest rates, a strong currency and buckets of money and they still won't invest in your country. Perhaps if you tried a two tiered tax system where you taxed the non citizen higher that excess capacity would leave your economy and the system would work

[tomder55]

You cannot incentivise those job creators of yours through the taxation system as has been done and giving them a low flat rate tax won't incentiveise them either because their decision making isn't based on tax. Look at your basket case economy. You have zero interest rates, a strong currency and buckets of money and they still won't invest in your country.

The other factor is burdensome regulation. I'm not in favor of giving anyone favors . With my system there would be no reason to .

[Oliver2011]

I go back to what I said. Just because it was a good idea 200 years ago, doesn't make it a good idea today. Grow and innovate. Term limits on politicians. Up the pay to attract business minds. Unfortunately the United States goes backwards more than forward. The welfare system doesn't work. I'm not saying do away with social programs, but let's change it. Someone much smarter than me has to come up with a plan.