[speechlesstx]

All I know is raising taxes helps the black market and increases revenue elsewhere.

Cigarette smuggling on the rise as taxes skyrocket

Denmark is abolishing the fat tax it enacted last year because it "inflated food prices and put Danish jobs at risk." Seems Danes were crossing over into Germany for cheaper food.

At least they've learned a lesson, Chicago just plans on raising cigarette taxes again.

[tomder55]

Increasing tax rates reduces revenues, I have never heard a more ridiculous argument... Next you will tell us reducing tax rate increase revenue..

And yet it has been proven true 3 times in my lifetime.

but you need a complete systemic change to improve your debt position.

No kidding... systemic spending on government giv-aways has destroyed the West.

Look at your corporate taxes they are a very small part of revenue, that doesn't make sense in the largest economy in the world

And yet the corporate rates are near if not the highest in the Western world .

[paraclete]

and yet it has been proven true 3 times in my lifetime.

reverse psychology is a wonderful thing

no kidding ... systemic spending on government giv-aways has destroyed the West.

Government giveaways do you mean the boondoggles stapled to bills? Who do you have to blame for this, government or politicians?

and yet the corporate rates are near if not the highest in the Western world .

Tom I have tried to be rational with you on this issue but you know as well as I do tax is all about polispeak.If tax rates were to apply as they were intended they would raise revenue but every little lobby group has found a way to get a concession with the result that the effective rate is very much lower. What does it matter what the rest of the world's tax rates are, this isn't a popularity contest. No one else has the concessions you do
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren..../03rates.html

As this article declares US companies are world leaders in tax avoidance

As a true comparison Tom, in 2010 the US had an effective average rate of 23% compared with a base 35% rate, while my own nation had a 22% effictive average rate compared with a base rate of 30%. Not that much between us actually excepting we don't have that inefficient state thing

[talaniman]

Sorry Clete, you are NOT a true capitalist because you don't believe in the capitalist business model. MO" MONEY, and worship the god of trickle down.

You are unworthy!!

[speechlesstx]

It's not a worship of anything Tal, it's called common sense - something frowned upon in this day. A trillion here and a trillion there, pretty soon you run out of other people's money. Is that how you run your finances or do you try and work within your means? Or do you just suck off the government teat and not worry about it?

[paraclete]

Sorry Clete, you are NOT a true capitalist because you don't believe in the capitalist business model. MO" MONEY, and worship the god of trickle down.

You are unworthy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never suggested I am a capitalist although highly trained to administer the capitalist system. I don't worship the twin gods of money and averice. The capitalist system is based on individual accumulation, which it is supposed leads to wide spread employment, but capital has learned, you can invest your money in selected bonds and get a return at least equal to putting your money at risk, so why take on these other responsibilities.

I don't care if I am unworthy, I just care if I am right. I live in a place which has demonstrated quite ably that capital properly regulated can both flourish and maintain employment. We made one mistake, we fell for the foolishness of thinking there is such a thing as a level playing field

[tomder55]

Clete ;if you are talking tax reform I'm all on board. The phoney Dems want to keep the deduction because the truth is that their own rich supporters benefit from them;and indeed ,over the course of the last century ;they were more responsible than the Repubics for distorting the code.
They advocate something even more insidious than Marxism if that's possible. At least Marxist play lip service to 'from each according to their abiiity' . These people are more into a Roman statist... bread and circus .

[paraclete]

Yes Tom I agree that what you have is a circus, but you have forgotten the bread, even the Romans knew a starving population was a recipe for disaster. The Romans knew that to keep a peaceful population you fed them on blood sport and bread all financed by the state but you have not given them the sport and you refuse them the bread.

I agree with reform, a simplification. It has worked well here. I'm not against lower tax rates, but a fairer system which places the burden on those that earn the money and therefore benefit. You want to broaden the system, use a broad based consumption tax, then everyone pays something according to their means. Those who spend more pay more. The idea that tax is a disincentive to capital is pure balloney, capitalist rhetoric. It just has to be factored into the return on investment but no one should be able to take super profits out of the system. Income tax is a very ineffective and regressive measure, because a whole industry has risen up to help minimise liability but I would rather take 10% off the top at point of consumption than try to extract 35% after the event at point of income.

Imagine this; yours is a $14 Trillion economy your take is about $1 trillion in income tax but you could halve income tax and take 10% off the top and you would have twice the revenue. This is what we did and our economy powers on. Where did all the extra money come from, from the tax cheats and cash economy.

[excon]

Hello clete:

They're NOT interested in reducing the deficit.. It's all subterfuge. All they want to do is GUT the safety net. If they really wanted to FIX it, they'd be right there with single payer health care.. It'll save at least FIVE percentage points off our GDP. The savings would be in the JILLIONS..

Now, I know they HATE it, but the money we'd save would pay for any size military they'd could fantasize about, plus it would take care of our seniors and our poor exactly like the leader of the world should do...

Even Romney saw the savings... But, they'll IGNORE me, and talk about how Medicare is bankrupting us... But, NOW you know the secret.

excon

[paraclete]

It is no secret Ex that business isn't interested in anything but profit. Once you are on the scrap heap, they don't want to assist the government to pay for you.

Your various programs are very expensive relative to the revenue collected and both you and I understand why they would object to pay more, since rich business men don't get anything out of the system. They are unable to see the connect between their ability to earn and their responsibilities.

What is bankrupting you is lack of revenue, someone forgot that people age and that they live a long time, but these things are circular, something these fellows also forgot. Those people on the receiving end spend that money and fuel the very business that object to taxes

[talaniman]

The jig is up for the obstruction thing so maybe we get some consensus, and a plan of action instead of this gridlock and phoney crisis crap.

[paraclete]

Nah they are politicians they must look good to the faithfull

[tomder55]

The jig is up for the obstruction thing

Yes ,if Harry Reid is on board a consensus can be reached. Now that he has successfully protected his majority ,maybe he can actually get around to some legislating .

[tomder55]

Wealthy Dump Assets Before the 'Fiscal Cliff' - U.S. Business News - CNBC

[tomder55]

Now that Obama bought the vote in Ohio... time to throw them under to bus too.

Ohioans

[paraclete]

Don't be a cynic Tom it may be time to consider the restructuring of the auto industry

[tomder55]

it may be time to consider the restructuring of the auto industry

You think ? Of course a normal tried and true bankruptcy process would've expedited that process.

[talaniman]

Its already been restructured and best if the right keep its hands off it.

[paraclete]

Tom I don't think anything of the kind, if I recall your auto industry was going down for the count. You would have lost GM. That is a vital industry, a government just can't afford to throw it away. Now I think your banks should have gone through the bankruptcy process too and they are not so vital there are plenty of them. Look whatever those costs were they are small compared with the absolute waste of money represented by the Iraq war. Your woes don't have anything to do with bailouts, they have everything to do with corporate greed, irresponsibility and pure bloodlymindedness of CEO's and boards. You would like it the other way with a greek style austerity, pensions cut, public service salaries cut, 25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment, riots in the streets

[tomder55]

Now I think your banks should have gone through the bankruptcy process too and they are not so vital there are plenty of them.

Absolutely I opposed the TARP bailouts too ;but you are wrong ,GM would've survived a LAWFUL bankruptcy process.

You would like it the other way with a greek style austerity, pensions cut, public service salaries cut, 25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment, riots in the streets

we will get there eventually under out current trajectory of government give-aways ,entitlements ;and yes public employee benefits.