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dwashbur · Mar 12, 2011, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Dave,

I disagree with you. IF i am correct and not on another radical grace tangent, then what Jesus bore on the cross was more than just sin.It was all of our diseases and sickness. They came together and failed to believe it. They ate the meal as if it were any other meal. AND are we not the same today? Ok maybe we don't come together to actually eat a MEAL.
But we come together and we don't discern what all he bore on the cross. That verse in Isaiah 53 IS very much relevant here. I think.

It's a question that's been around for ages: is there healing in the atonement? Read extensively enough and you'll find an array of opinions that covers the entire spectrum from "yes" to "no." My view? Idunno. When Matthew cites the reference in the context of Jesus healing scads of people, he says that prophecy was fulfilled. So maybe Isaiah only foresaw Jesus' public ministry and the miracles of healing that he used to validate his identity. Does God still heal? Yeah, my left hand is constant proof of that. Does the verse refer to ALL our sickness and disease? I wish, because my sister would still be alive. And my neck wouldn't hurt.

One of my favorite things to do is nail faith healers who tell someone "you weren't healed because you didn't have enough faith." Because there's an episode in the gospels where some people brought a person to Jesus for healing when the disciples couldn't do it. When they asked him later why they couldn't heal the person, he said "Because of YOUR lack of faith." I.e. the lack of faith was on the part of the healER, not the healEE. The ones that really are charlatans can't handle that and usually get angry. At that point I will rest my case and walk away.

But we digress. As I said, I think the question of healing in the atonement is somewhat separate from this question of participating in the Lord's table in an unworthy manner. I see what you're saying, but I don't really think the two questions are bound up in each other in any essential way.

Wondergirl · Mar 12, 2011, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

then what Jesus bore on the cross was more than just sin.It was all of our diseases and sickness.

Then why do Christians still get sick?

I think those Corinthians were saved, but just got out of hand and forgot that tidbit during the pleasures of the meals and lording it over "lesser" Christians. The main thing Paul pointed out was, don't partake of the Lord's Supper without examining your heart and asking for forgiveness. As Matthew Henry wrote: "If we would thoroughly search ourselves, to condemn and set right what we find wrong, we should stop Divine judgements."

dwashbur · Mar 12, 2011, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Then why do Christians still get sick?

Back in the early 80's I was working in a Christian bookstore; this was around the time that the whole "prosperity gospel" was picking up steam. I was at work one day and was battling a nasty cold. A local pastor was checking out, and while working the register I was chatting with him. I handed him his receipt and as he turned to go he looked at the woman in line after him and said "Keep your distance. He has a cold." She grinned and said "That's okay, I don't receive germs any more."

Bear in mind, this was before I went on ADD medication, so in normal fashion I just blurted out the first thing that came to my mind:

"That's nice, but they don't always ring the doorbell first." :D

I figured I'd toss that little tee-hee out just for fun. I'm enjoying this discussion but I may be out of touch for a few days. The family and I are heading out of town for most of the week and I don't know what kind of access I'm going to have while we're gone.

Later, all!

Fr_Chuck · Mar 13, 2011, 07:39 AM

Yes, and all of the 12 ( or 11) followers of Christ all retired rich and without sickness to mansions on the ocean front.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 07:47 AM

Fr Chuck,

They didn't die from sickness or disease. They died horrible deaths for the Lord Jesus according to history BUT they weren't sick.

I don't know, I am not sayiing I have it right. I just don't know.

Wondergirl · Mar 13, 2011, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Fr Chuck,

They didn't die from sickness or disease. They died horrible deaths for the Lord Jesus according to history BUT they weren't sick.

I don't know, I am not sayiing I have it right. I just don't know.

It doesn't say they died horrible deaths; they weren't struck down like A&S. I'm thinking their overindulgences and nastinesses caught up with them fairly quickly, and Paul linked that with their behavior at the Lord's Table and their general attitude about poorer Christians. A medical examiner would have had a field day.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 13, 2011, 07:57 AM

Tradition has Paul, he talks of a "thorn in the flesh" some problem that effected him, He also refers to "slow of speech"

And of course there would be no need for Healing, which we are told that the followers of Christ can do, if there was no illness or sickness to heal.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Then why do Christians still get sick?

I think those Corinthians were saved, but just got out of hand and forgot that tidbit during the pleasures of the meals and lording it over "lesser" Christians. The main thing Paul pointed out was, don't partake of the Lord's Supper without examining your heart and asking for forgiveness. As Matthew Henry wrote: "If we would thoroughly search ourselves, to condemn and set right what we find wrong, we should stop Divine judgements."

Maybe we get sick because we don't believe that he bore all of our diseases. Unbelief is the only thing that God can't and won't work with.
And I am not saying that people don't have enough faith. It isn't about enough.. it is about not believing that the gospel is MORE than just for salvation. It is believing he bore EVERYTHING on the cross, including the curse.

I don't know if that is what the verse means WG. I use to believe that is what it meant. But none of us are without sin anytime we come to take the elements. SO maybe it is examining what we believe about them. Maybe it is about what we believe concerning the finished work on the cross.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It doesn't say they died horrible deaths; they weren't struck down like A&S. I'm thinking their overindulgences and nastinesses caught up with them fairly quickly, and Paul linked that with their behavior at the Lord's Table and their general attitude about poorer Christians. A medical examiner would have had a field day.

I was referring to the 12 disciples that Fr_chuck mentioned. They didn't die of disease according the history.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

Back in the early 80's I was working in a Christian bookstore; this was around the time that the whole "prosperity gospel" was picking up steam. I was at work one day and was battling a nasty cold. A local pastor was checking out, and while working the register I was chatting with him. I handed him his receipt and as he turned to go he looked at the woman in line after him and said "Keep your distance. He has a cold." She grinned and said "That's okay, I don't receive germs any more."

Bear in mind, this was before I went on ADD medication, so in normal fashion I just blurted out the first thing that came to my mind:

"That's nice, but they don't always ring the doorbell first." :D

I figured I'd toss that little tee-hee out just for fun. I'm enjoying this discussion but I may be out of touch for a few days. The family and I are heading out of town for most of the week and I don't know what kind of access I'm going to have while we're gone.

Later, all!

Have fun Dave!

Wondergirl · Mar 13, 2011, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

SO maybe it is examining what we believe about them. Maybe it is about what we believe concerning the finished work on the cross.

Maybe it means we are saved and living in God's grace, but are still caught in a sinful condition, must examine our actions and attitudes for where we have failed, then repent and ask for forgiveness, and try harder to show love.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 11:34 AM

Well, I use to think that we needed to examine ourselves and see if there is any wicked way in us before we came to the Lord's table. But the truth is, even when I would ask the Lord to reveal everything, I would later remember something I hadn't confessed. I just don't think Paul was saying these people died, were sick and weak because of their shananigans. I think they didn't understand the importance of what they were doing and THAT is what went wrong. I don't even believe the Lord was disciplining them for not understanding. I think that because of their lack of knowledge and wrong BELIEVING that is why they were ill. God says his people perish for lack of knowledge. They simply didn't BELIEVE the Lord's table was something BIG. And I don't think we believe it today. We go through the motions.

I don't believe God is judging anyone of us by what we do when we are in Christ.

When the Lord instructed the 12 in the upper room before he was cruicified, he never told them to search their hearts. He told them what the bread represented and what the wine represented. All he said was to do it and remember him. Why? Because we show the Lord's death until he comes. What does THAT mean? Couldn't it mean that not only does the Lord's death save us from hell but also the curse and all that came with it.

Wondergirl · Mar 13, 2011, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

I just don't think Paul was saying these people died, were sick and weak because of their shananigans.

Well, that's what I've always been told, plus I checked five commentaries before I posted. All five agreed with what I had been taught. Just sayin'.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 12:03 PM

Ok... I've been told that too. But why didn't the Lord tell them that when they had the last supper together. What does.. showing the Lord's death until he comes mean?

I hope I never just go by what someone says because they are smarter than I am in the word. Maybe they are all wrong and I'm right. Ha ha.. headstrong and myself are lonely souls with no one to agree with us. :D

Wondergirl · Mar 13, 2011, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

But why didn't the Lord tell them that when they had the last supper together.

Who was at the Last Supper? Compare that to the verses (and NT people) we have been talking about.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 12:27 PM

Ok, there was a guy named Thomas who doubted the Lord, There was a guy named Peter who thought way more highly of himself than he should have, there was Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus.. I guess it was a bunch of sinners who needed a savior. Same as the guys in cornith.

Wondergirl · Mar 13, 2011, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Ok, there was a guy named Thomas who doubted the Lord, There was a guy named Peter who thought way more highly of himself than he should have, there was Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus.. I guess it was a bunch of sinners who needed a savior. Same as the guys in cornith.

But those guys breathed the same air as Jesus for three years. Jesus had spoken often of repentance and forgiveness. The Last Supper with the Twelve was the first time that meal was observed, the first time it happened, and it had a different emphasis from Corinth or now.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Tradition has Paul, he talks of a "thorn in the flesh" some problem that effected him, He also refers to "slow of speech"

And of course there would be no need for Healing, which we are told that the followers of Christ can do, if there was no illness or sickness to heal.

Once again, I always believed it was a REAL problem with his physical body. But now I don't think so. Look this guy just had to touch a piece of cloth and people were healed. I can't imagine him running around with a physical problem and he has the gift of healing. I once heard someone say his thorn was a personal sin. I think that is soooo wrong. Paul learned to die daily. That couldn't have been it either. I don't know what it was but I am starting to think it wasn't a sickenss or physical issue. If it was a messenger of Satan... it had to be something or someone bothering him. That's my take. Not that anyone asked.

Wondergirl · Mar 13, 2011, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

it had to be something or someone bothering him. Thats my take. not that anyone asked.

I've read in a number of places that Paul may have been a homosexual. The treatment he got when he entered various communities doesn't make sense if he had a physical infirmity or deformity, even something as awful as leprosy. He had tremendous self-loathing. He had great disdain for exploitative homosexual activity in pagan temples. He never married. There was a constant war between what he desired in his mind and what he desired in his body.

We'll never know in this life if Paul was really gay. A scandal? Yes, but then Jesus was born apparently illegitimate, hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, and was crucified like a common criminal. Sometimes "scandals" are the way God works. Paul defined grace for the Christian. Grace is the ineffable love of God, an unconditional love, that loved Paul just as he was.

classyT · Mar 13, 2011, 03:16 PM

WG,

Now see, that is what one woman brought up at a bible study I was attending. I don't believe that for one single second. There is absolutely NO evidence of that. I have heard people say that about our Lord too. Just because John called himself the disciple who Jesus loved. It has NOTHING in the world to do with hating homosexuals either. I feel the same when they imply the Lord had a thing for Mary of Magdala. I dislike very much when people try to put any kind of sinful nature to the Lord Jesus. Jesus didn't come here to fall in love and get married and lust. He didn't have a thing for John or Mary. UGH..

And I sincerely doubt Paul was homosexual. For the LOVE, he totally condmened it. He wasn't married. So big deal, lots of people are single. And I have experienced the same war Paul spoke of in Romans 7. Geesh. It doesn't mean it was a sexual war. Anyone who gets saved and tries to live pleasing to Jesus will be in that same war. Just losing my temper, or not getting my way, or giving up things I want that aren't good for me can put me in that very struggle that Paul spoke about.

Jesus hung out with sinners, tax collectors and prostitues but I can assure you they weren't turning tricks or swindling money after spending hours listening to the Lord. We ALL have a past. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.