[hheath541]

Just in case you don't believe me.

Masonic Foundations of the U.S.

[ETWolverine]

actually, many of the founding fathers weren't christian at all. they were freemasons.

"Freemason" isn't a religion. Masons can be from ANY religion. They just have to believe in a "higher power/creator" of some sort. There are Masons from every religion on Earth. I have known Christian and Jewish Masons, and have heard of Muslim and Budhhist Masons, though I have never met one. (There are no Atheist Masons. The Masons require beliefe in SOME FORM of creator for entry into membership, which Atheists do not believe.)

While I believe that SOME of the Founders were indeed Masons, they were also predominantly CHRISTIANS, even the ones who were Masons.

There were a few Deists, a few Agnostics and Atheists, but primarily, they were Christians. I know that Atheists love to point to the fact that there were a few of their own among the Founders, but they were the VERY SMALL minority among the founders.

Elliot

[Lashercelt]

Again, I am aware that some of the founding fathers were also freemasons. These men were also primarily Christians. (I am Not saying all freemasons were/are Christian) as Wolverine stated: "Freemason isn't a religion"..

You seem to be missing my point: The beliefs that this country has held dear since it's birth have been torn apart by our need to be PC to anyone who comes here no matter what they come here demanding as their "rights." Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator. The more that God is removed from school and common talk.. the more morally corrupt we have become. If you believe in God or not, does it not stand to reason that some may be helped to stay on the right path believing that their deeds are weighed and measured and that someday they will answer for their actions in the highest court?

Moral fiber and a Christian based belief system works as a conscious of sorts. Not to say folks of other religions have no moral fiber.. it's to say, as my actual point is, that IT WAS WORKING far better than all of this nonsense going on today, so why fix what is NOT broken?

[hheath541]

Again, I am aware that some of the founding fathers were also freemasons. These men were also primarily Christians. (I am Not saying all freemasons were/are Christian) as Wolverine stated: "Freemason isn't a religion"..

You seem to be missing my point: The beliefs that this country has held dear since it's birth have been torn apart by our need to be PC to anyone who comes here no matter what they come here demanding as their "rights." Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator. The more that God is removed from school and common talk.. the more morally corrupt we have become. If you believe in God or not, does it not stand to reason that some may be helped to stay on the right path believing that their deeds are weighed and measured and that someday they will answer for their actions in the highest court?

Moral fiber and a Christian based belief system works as a conscious of sorts. Not to say folks of other religions have no moral fiber.. it's to say, as my actual point is, that IT WAS WORKING far better than all of this nonsense going on today, so why fix what is NOT broken?

let me see if I understand you. You're saying that christian values are what has kept this country running? It has been christian values that has kept this country from sliding into crime and moral inequity?

I would like to point out a few things in america's history that were not only sanctioned, but spearheaded, by christians. Christians who used the bible and christian values to support their points.

slavery , and the argument that it was the right of the white man to own slaves, was a deeply held belief of many christians. They used biblical examples to back up their arguments.

"The Christian church's main justification of the concept of slavery was based on the "curse of Ham" which appears in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) in Genesis 9:25-27.

"Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

Christians at the time believed that Canaan had settled in Africa and that his descendents had become black.

Although slavery was widespread in Palestine during Jesus' ministry, the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) does not record his opinion of it. Slavery was casually mentioned without criticism in the various books of the Bible. It was accepted as a natural part of life by almost all Christians until the 19th century CE.

Anabaptists started to criticize slavery in the late 17th century. They were joined by Quakers and Mennonites. It was only when John Wesley (1703-1791), founder of the Methodist movement, became concerned about slavery that the small protest became a mass movement for the abolition of slavery.

Slavery is still advocated in North America by some Reconstructionist Christians and a few racist fringe groups within the Christian Identity movement."
Christianity and slavery


segregation was also supported and promoted by christians.

"30 Reasons for Segregation of Races

by Finis Dake
Acts 17:26

God wills all races to be as He made them. Any violation of God's original purpose manifests insubordination to Him(Acts 17:26; Romans 9:19-24)
God made everything to reproduce “After his own kind” (Genesis 1:11-12, 21-25; 6:20; 7:14). Kind means type and color or He would have kept them all alike to begin with.
God originally determined the bounds of the habitations of nations(Acts 17:26; Genesis 10:5, 32; 11:8; Deuteronomy 32:8)
Miscegenation means the mixture of races, especially the black and white races, or those of outstanding type or color. The Bible even goes farther than opposing this. It is against different branches of the same stock intermarrying such as Jews marrying other descendants of Abraham(Ezra 9-10; Nehemiah 9-13; Jeremiah 50:37; Ezekiel 30:5).
Abraham forbad Eliezer to take a wife for Isaac of Canaanites (Genesis 24:1-4). God was so pleased with this that He directed whom to get (Genesis 24:7, 12-27).
Isaac forbad Jacob to take a wife of the Canaanites (Genesis 27:46-28:7).
Abraham sent all his sons of the concubines, and even of his second wife, far away from Isaac so their descendants would not mix (Genesis 25:1-6)
Esau disobeying this law brought the final break between him and his father after lifelong companionship with him(Genesis 25:28; 26:34-35, 27:46; 28:8-9).
The two branches of Isaac remained segregated forever (Genesis 30; 46:8-26).
Ishmael and Isaac's descendants remained segregated forever (Genesis 25:12-23; 1 Chronicles 1:29)
Jacob's sons destroyed a whole city to maintain segregation (Genesis 34)
God forbad intermarriage between Israel and all other nations (Exodus 34:12-16; Deuteronomy 7:5-6)
Joshua forbad the same thing on sentence of death (Joshua 22:12-13)
God cursed angels for leaving their own “first estate” and “their own habitation” to marry the daughters of men (Genesis 6:1-4; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6-7)
Miscegenation caused Israel to be cursed (Judges 3:6-7; Numbers 25:1-8)
This was Solomon's sin(I Kings 12)
This was the sin of Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 9:1-10:2,10-18,44; 13:1-30)
God commanded Israel to be segregated (Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 23:9; 1 Kings 8:53)
Jews recognized as a separate people in all ages because of Gods choice and command (Matthew 10:6; John 1:11). Equal rights in the gospel gives no right to break this eternal law.
Segregation between Jews and all other nations to remain in all eternity (Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37; 47:13-48,55; Zechariah 14:16-21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:32-33; Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5)
All nations will remain segregated from one another in their own parts of the earth forever (Acts 17:26; Genesis 10:5,32; 11:8-9; Deuteronomy 32:8; Daniel 7:13-14; Zechariah 14; Revelation 11:15; 21:24)
Certain people in Israel were not even to worship with others (Deuteronomy 23:1-5; Ezra 10:8; Nehemiah 9:2 10:28; 13:3)
Even in heaven certain groups will not be allowed to worship together (Revelation 7:7-17; 14:1-5; 15:2-5)
Segregation was so strong in the O.T. that an ox and an could not work together (Deuteronomy 22:10).
Miscegenation caused disunity among God's people (Numbers 12).
Stock was forbidden to be bred with other kinds (Leviticus 19:19).
Sowing mixed seed in the same field was unlawful (Leviticus 19:19)
Different seeds were forbidden to be planted in vineyards (Deuteronomy 22:9)
Wearing garments of mixed fabrics forbidden (Deuteronomy 22:11; Leviticus 19:19)
Christians and certain other people of a like race are to be segregated (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 6:15; 2 Corinthians 6:14-15; Ephesians 5:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-16; 1 Timothy 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:5)."
30 Reasons for Segregation of Races by Finis Dake Acts 17:26
(that site also has biblical references for several other beliefs that are no longer held in popular opinion)


most recently, and prominently, are the biblical arguments against homosexuality and gay marriage.

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."
Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective | Bible.org



if you need other examples, or sources, of how christian values have actually increased moral inequity and even caused oppression, I'll be happy to supply them.

please understand, I'm not saying that christianity, as a whole, causes all this nations problems. I'm just saying that many of the things from america's history that are now seen as abominations and black marks against the moral fiber of this country were supported by christians at that time. This country has NOT always run well, with or without christian influence, and there ARE parts that are broken and in need of fixing.

[Alty]

I'm the same as you guys and I believe it's the same in the US as in Canada, you make an oath of affirmation: Oath or affirmation legal definition of Oath or affirmation. Oath or affirmation synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Not sure if it's true today but it was 14 years ago.

When we went to get our marriage license they asked us to swear on the bible that the info we were giving was true.

I told them that I'm fine with it, but it really didn't matter to me, they could hold up a Mr. Potato head for me to swear on and it would mean the same thing to me.

So thet made us swear an Oath instead.

Too bad, I was hoping for the Mr. Potato head, that would have been a great story to tell my kids. ;)

[artlady]

Wasn't it Marlon Brando who had to testify in court but refused to swear on a bible. He said something like while I do believe in god, I do not believe in the same way as others, so I would prefer not to swear on the bible. I think they had some other thing to swear on I forget.

I remember that!

[hheath541]

Not sure if it's true today but it was 14 years ago.

When we went to get our marriage license they asked us to swear on the bible that the info we were giving was true.

I told them that I'm fine with it, but it really didn't matter to me, they could hold up a Mr. Potato head for me to swear on and it would mean the same thing to me.

So thet made us swear an Oath instead.

Too bad, I was hoping for the Mr. Potato head, that would have been a great story to tell my kids. ;)

mr. potatohead would have been so much more fun and interesting ^_^

[Alty]

Again, I am aware that some of the founding fathers were also freemasons. These men were also primarily Christians. (I am Not saying all freemasons were/are Christian) as Wolverine stated: "Freemason isn't a religion"..

Are you forgetting the Deists? Most of the "founding fathers" were Deists, which is very much a religion and has nothing to do with Christianity, but I digress.

The beliefs that this country has held dear since it's birth have been torn apart by our need to be PC to anyone who comes here no matter what they come here demanding as their "rights." Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator.

We not longer practice the beliefs that "this" country held dear since it's birth, so that point in moot.

As for being PC to everyone, it's called freedom of religion, you might want to look into it.

What does being a "natural" born citizen have to do with it? I live in Canada, but I'm not a Canadian by birth. Are you speaking for all Americans? I have to assume that you aren't because most of my friends on this site are Americans and thankfully none of them feel the way you do.

so why fix what is NOT broken?

It's broken, which is why it needs to be fixed.

By the way, what's with your signature? Love your race? You have a right to your beliefs, but you don't have the right to shove your racist comments in our face.

[hheath541]

By the way, what's with your signature? Love your race? You have a right to your beliefs, but you don't have the right to shove your racist comments in our face.

I missed that. Wow, it says a LOT about him. Thanks for pointing that out.

[HelpinHere]

most recently, and prominently, are the biblical arguments against homosexuality and gay marriage.

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."
Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective | Bible.org

Yes, I see what you mean, but it is all about interpretation.
:::Warning: Graphical for those of you with an active imagination:::
First off, with a man and a woman, a penis and a vagina, sex is, from a biological sense, natural. You become pregnant through sex, further your race. A man and man, or woman and woman, cannot naturally become pregnant. You cannot insert a penis into a penis, or a vagina into a vagina, as much as you can't plug an AC cord into another AC cord, it needs one "male" and one "female" plug to work.
As for the "blood shall be upon them", remember, this is the old testament, where God encouraged us to "multiply". If you can't have children, and your children are supposed to be the future of the Earth, then it could be essentially be the same as genocide of a race...
I'm not saying it is, but in a scarcely populated Earth, one family spreads far, and looking at the words from a less-literal standpoint, it can seem as less of a condeming standpoint.
It's not like they are actually murdering anyone, but more like preventing someone from existing.

please understand, I'm not saying that christianity, as a whole, causes all this nations problems. I'm just saying that many of the things from america's history that are now seen as abominations and black marks against the moral fiber of this country were supported by christians at that time. This country has NOT always run well, with or without christian influence, and there ARE parts that are broken and in need of fixing.

I know what you are saying.
I'm saying that if Christians are right, and God is an all-power, omnipresent omniscient entity, and they even say "we can't even begin to understand his will" then why do we think what he(she? I don't see why it matters, I'll say "he" for simplicity) 'said' even means what we think it meant?

It's not Christianity that causes any problems, or any religions or religious ideas, it's what the people leading those religions interpret them to be, and people are constantly wrong. Perhaps everything we think he says in the bible, we are wrong. I believe that a true God would want the betterment of all people, no matter what they feel.

If you can't accept that, then I don't think your god is a true God. If your god needs to pick favorites with his creations, then he must not be all powerful, like my God.

[Catsmine]

Let's take a moment to think of the other wonderful things Christianity has brought us: the term "gooks," the KKK, witch trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and, above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

[HelpinHere]

Let's take a moment to think of the other wonderful things Christianity has brought us: the term "gooks," the KKK, witch trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and, above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

But remember, it's not the religion itself, but it's the people mis-interpreting the religion that bring anything.

Without the people, it's a dusty old book sitting on a shelf. It does nothing. It's the people who read it, see one thing, take it to a total extreme, and end up chastizing [insert whatever is chastized here] that is the problem.

[Catsmine]

Religion is a lot like dandruff. Most people have some and spend a great deal of time and money fiddling with it. - Robert Heinlein

[hheath541]

But remember, it's not the religion itself, but it's the people mis-interpreting the religion that bring anything.

Without the people, it's a dusty old book sitting on a shelf. It does nothing. It's the people who read it, see one thing, take it to a total extreme, and end up chastizing [insert whatever is chastized here] that is the problem.

but lashercelt is arguing that christian values (and values are ONLY determined by people, not gods) have brought nothing but good to this country, and that by trying to make this society more inclusive to other beliefs and cultures we are essentially watering down those same christian values and destroying the country.

[HelpinHere]

but lashercelt is arguing that christian values (and values are ONLY determined by people, not gods) have brought nothing but good to this country, and that by trying to make this society more inclusive to other beliefs and cultures we are essentially watering down those same christian values and destroying the country.

Exactly, you proved my point.

It's not the religion, it's the people. But, yes, many problems can be linked to Christianity, it's not the religion in itself that is the problem, but the people.

*sigh* It's always intolerant people... :rolleyes:


But, then again, "nothing but good" is all a matter of opinion. Maybe that poster thinks all this oppression is good, while we think it is bad.

[hheath541]

You know, I like christ, he's a good guy. It's christians who worry me.

Then again, fanatics of ANY variety scare me.

[Lashercelt]

Are you forgetting the Deists? Most of the "founding fathers" were Deists, which is very much a religion and has nothing to do with Christianity, but I digress.



We not longer practice the beliefs that "this" country held dear since it's birth, so that point in moot.

As for being PC to everyone, it's called freedom of religion, you might want to look into it.

What does being a "natural" born citizen have to do with it? I live in Canada, but I'm not a Canadian by birth. Are you speaking for all Americans? I have to assume that you aren't because most of my friends on this site are Americans and thankfully none of them feel the way you do.



It's broken, which is why it needs to be fixed.

By the way, what's with your signature? Love your race? You have a right to your beliefs, but you don't have the right to shove your racist comments in our face.

I don't need yours or anyone's permission to express myself as you do not.Nor do I care to have your approval.
As you stated.. I have a right to my beliefs.. which is exactly what I am expressing here. To be clear I am NOT a he.. I am a SHE and because I love my race does not make me racist.. I am talking about love-NOT hate.. that's where you liberals always get it wrong.. when you spout about being PC to everyone.. maybe you need to actually include EVERYONE! Just because I think things were better years ago than they are now and that a Christian based belief system is partially the reason AND because I happen to think ALL people should love their race you assume I am a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE which of course to your way of thinking means a racist.. well here's a big surprise, I AM NOT!. If for instance I was a black, Muslim female that was waving a banner saying to, "love your race." You'd be all fine and cosy with that wouldn't you? Because THAT would be being PC to everyone. *spit* ridiculous! Everyone should love themselves, friends, family and race.. Thought I made that clear.. There was no small print that said "if you're white"..

[Catsmine]

Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator.

No, it is not. The very first of the Amendments says that to legislate such a concept is ILLEGAL.

[HelpinHere]

you assume I am a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE which of course to your way of thinking means a racist.. well here's a big surprise, I AM NOT!.. If for instance I was a black, Muslim female that was waving a banner saying to, "love your race." You'd be all fine and cosy with that wouldn't you? Because THAT would be being PC to everyone. *spit* ridiculous! Everyone should love themselves, friends, family and race.. Thought I made that clear.. There was no small print that said "if you're white"..

Actually, I thought you were a female. A Christian female, based on what you were saying, but a female nonetheless.
As for the "Love your race" thing, no, no matter who you are it wouldn't be acceptable. It's basically saying "I think my race is better than yours." Because, from an objective standpoint, we see you saying it. We don't see any person of any race saying it, because we don't know your race. You don't see anyone saying "you white supremesist" or "you KKK member!" we say "you racist".
If there was a black Muslim holding a sign, I would assume that she was racist for blacks. Racism exists in all races, not just white people. But, if I saw a line of people from all racists all holding the same sign, then it would be a different thing.

As it stands now, your signiture points to racism, and is offending to people.
If it was just there, it would be one thing. However you have "Love your race!" underlined and with an exclaimation point, meaning you think it's the most important thing of that statement, and you should pay attention to it. Again, pointing to racism.

[inthebox]

Let's take a moment to think of the other wonderful things Christianity has brought us: the term "gooks," the KKK, witch trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and, above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

Please elaborate and provide links.

Certainly, a sinful humanity, including the church, have committed atrocities, but it is biased to only see one side.

In the name of Christianity:

First and foremost - the way to eternal salvation via Jesus Christ and God's grace, mercy and forgiveness. - salvation army - god's pantry - ymca - mother theresa - countless church missions to countries throughout the world and to provide for the local community, MLK etc...

Read the preamble ot the Declaration of Independence and you will see that the founding father's DO acknowledge a creator that gives rights.

In the name of separating or eliminating the church from the state:

Russsian communism
Mao's communism
Pol Pot
Hitler, yes born Catholic but his "master race" belief is Darwinian, and not born of true Christianity.



Unlike atheists or those who do not put their trust in God, Christians acknowledge that humanity is imperfect, and that anything based on the humanity is going to have its faults.
I know I am seriously flawed as well as gifted in many ways. That is the way God made me. I dare not think that I nor any other human being can get the it right all the time.






G&P