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De Maria · Apr 6, 2009, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by sndbay

I believe... in using more then causion concerning praying to saints/angels... they do not sit at right hand of God, they were servants, they are messenger from God ... Pray unto the Father!

I do so. But God has given me a family which loves each other. And just as I can ask you for prayer, I can ask them for prayer. For in our Godly family, not only does the Father talk with the Son and the Son with the Father, but our Mother in Christ speaks to her Son and to the Father in Heaven and we to her. And so we also speak to our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether they be here beside us or face to face with Jesus.

Our is not a dysfunctional family where communication is forbidden between the brothers and sisters.

classyT · Apr 6, 2009, 09:17 AM

Give me one verse that says we are to pray to people who have died? ONE? Look, our souls ALL continue to live and that includes HITLER... How about this.. give me one example where the Lord, the apostle Paul, Peter, James, John, or any other apostle EVER prayed to the dead!!

De Maria · Apr 6, 2009, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Give me one verse that says we are to pray to people who have died? ONE?

We don't pray to people who have died.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That's a good question. Do you believe Jesus?

look, our souls ALL continue to live and that includes HITLER...

But I don't consider Hitler a saint. Do you? A saint is one who is alive in Christ. Not one who is dead in their sins.

How about this.. give me one example where the Lord, the apostle Paul, Peter, James, John, or any other apostle EVER prayed to the dead!!

If we prayed to the dead, I would do so. But we don't.

However, I can show you an example of a prayer to Abraham:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

classyT · Apr 6, 2009, 09:55 AM

De Maria,

Please name ONE SAINT that the Apostles prayed to? Thanks. YEs, your example was of two people who had passed and were speaking together in hell one on one side the other on the torment side. I'd like an example of one of the Apostles that were alive on this earth( the LORD included) where they prayed to a saint who had passed on.

sndbay · Apr 6, 2009, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by De Maria

I do so. But God has given me a family which loves each other. And just as I can ask you for prayer, I can ask them for prayer. For in our Godly family, not only does the Father talk with the Son and the Son with the Father, but our Mother in Christ speaks to her Son and to the Father in Heaven and we to her. And so we also speak to our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether they be here beside us or face to face with Jesus.

Our is not a dysfunctional family where communication is forbidden between the brothers and sisters.

DeMaria,

As one in Christ and Christ in me, I become one with Christ..

Now I can't imagine or beleive that Christ within me, would go to a saint in prayer.

Christ would go to HIS Father just as He ensampled and just as He taught us to do.

Gal 3:17 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 18 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Tj3 · Apr 6, 2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by De Maria

I am claiming that Saints are alive in Christ, whether on earth or in heaven. Whether in the spirit or in the flesh.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That is fine, but the restriction is in scripture is with respect to those who are dead in the flesh. That is, for some reason, a distinction that you and others seem to wish to avoid.

Wondergirl · Apr 6, 2009, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

That is fine, but the restriction is in scripture is with respect to those who are dead in the flesh. That is, for some reason, a distinction that you and others seem to wish to avoid.

Restriction is for necromancy, the occult.

Tj3 · Apr 6, 2009, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Job 19:26

Nice try, but that refers to Jesus who has not yet been manifested in the flesh in the timeframe that we are discussing.

Tj3 · Apr 6, 2009, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Were God and angels corporal beings on earth at one time?

First, angels? No. Angels are spirit beings, not humans. Different creation.

Second, with respect to God, two persons of the trinity have never has bodies of flesh, and yet we can identify a specific time at Jesus' baptism where the Holy Spirit was visible. We also have cases in the OT where Jesus was visible prior to being born in the flesh.

So Fred's contention that spirits are always invisible as a means of differentiation who is in the flesh and who is not does not hold water,

Tj3 · Apr 6, 2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Restriction is for necromancy, the occult.

"necro" refers to those who are dead in the flesh. Look up necromancy. Necormancy is communication with the dead (dead in the flesh), and yes, it is considered an occult practice.

Tj3 · Apr 6, 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

De Maria,

Please name ONE SAINT that the Apostles prayed to? thanx. YEs, your example was of two people who had passed and were speaking together in hell one on one side the other on the torment side. I'd like an example of one of the Apostles that were alive on this earth( the LORD included) where they prayed to a saint who had passed on.

Good question. I look forward to the answer.

classyT · Apr 6, 2009, 01:11 PM

Acura,

It is NOT biblical. There is NO WHERE in the word where a living apostle prayed to a saint who had left his body and moved on. There is no instructions to pray to the saints that have passed. There is no instructions to pray to ANYONE other than God the Father in Jesus' name.

Tj3,

There is none. I don't get this practice at all. Why would I WANT to pray to a saint who has passed when I can go straight to the THRONE of the MOST HIGH GOD! WOW... I don't think christians fully understand the honor, privilege or power or they wouldn't waste their time asking a saint that had to be SAVED for help. It is kind of nutty. ( OK I expect to be badly bruised for that remark... bring it on.. lol )

450donn · Apr 6, 2009, 01:29 PM

This and the duplicate question have now spread over 350 posts, and the argument will continue to rage one side vs the other. Since the moderators see fit to remove a valid question maybe they will finally see fit to close this question as no one will ever convince the other side they are right/wrong.

Wondergirl · Apr 6, 2009, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

It is NOT biblical.

Have you ever asked for a fellow Christian to pray for you or your family?

Wondergirl · Apr 6, 2009, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by 450donn

This and the duplicate question have now spread over 350 posts, and the argument will continue to rage one side vs the other. Since the moderators see fit to remove a valid question maybe they will finally see fit to close this question as no one will ever convince the other side they are right/wrong.

I got convinced during another thread.

450donn · Apr 6, 2009, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Have you ever asked for a fellow Christian to pray for you or your family?

Asking a person that is still flesh and blood (alive) to pray for you is not at all like asking a spirit, saint, or what ever you choose to call those that have died to pray for you. Heck you might as well use a weegee board, you are trying to communicate using the same hokus pokus either way.

Wondergirl · Apr 6, 2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by 450donn

Asking a person that is still flesh and blood (alive) to pray for you is not at all like asking a spirit, saint, or what ever you choose to call those that have died to pray for you. Heck you might as well use a weegee board, you are trying to communicate using the same hokus pokus either way.

So you believe those who have died in Christ are dead in both flesh and spirit.

weegee = ouija (correct name)

classyT · Apr 6, 2009, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Have you ever asked for a fellow Christian to pray for you or your family?

YES wondergirl, I sure have. I have asked them, never had to pray to them though. Course I could start. I could pray to my sister who lives several hours away to lift me up in prayer. It would be ridiculous however. I ASK people to pray for me. I don't pray to people to pray for me... and there is no where in the word that says I should or instructs me to do so. I pray only to my Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. The last time I looked in scripture... He is the only one that can hear me and answer me.

Wondergirl · Apr 6, 2009, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

YES wondergirl, I sure have. I have asked them, never had to pray to them though. course i could start. I could pray to my sister who lives several hours away to lift me up in prayer. it would be ridiculous however. I ASK people to pray for me. I don't pray to people to pray for me....and there is no where in the word that says I should or instructs me to do so. I pray only to my Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. The last time I looked in scripture...He is the only one that can hear me and answer me.

Isn't asking the same as praying to? The English phrase "I pray you to tell me what that means" is the same as "I ask you to tell me what that means." So why not ask saints in heaven to pray for us just as we ask saints on earth to pray for us?

Wondergirl · Apr 6, 2009, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

YES wondergirl, I sure have. I have asked them, never had to pray to them though. course i could start. I could pray to my sister who lives several hours away to lift me up in prayer. it would be ridiculous however. I ASK people to pray for me. I don't pray to people to pray for me....and there is no where in the word that says I should or instructs me to do so. I pray only to my Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. The last time I looked in scripture...He is the only one that can hear me and answer me.

Isn't asking the same as praying to? The English phrase "I pray you to tell me what that means" is the same as "I ask you to tell me what that means." So why not ask saints in heaven to pray for us just as we ask saints on earth to pray for us? Any answer comes from God.