[arcura]

I am interested only in evidence biblical or otherwise (such as from the early Church writings) about asking the saints to pray for us or others.
I am NOT interested in any posts contrary to that.
:confused:Peace and kindness,:confused:
Fred

[De Maria]

I am interested only in evidence biblical or otherwise (such as from the early Church writings) about asking the saints to pray for us or others.
I am NOT interested in any posts contrary to that.
:confused:Peace and kindness,:confused:
Fred

BIBLICAL EVIDENCE

Hi Fred,

The Scriptures tell us that saints are to intercede for each other.

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Scripture also tells us that the Saints in heaven are alive.

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

And that the Saints are a cloud of witnesses which surrounds us.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Since we know that God wills us to pray for each other on earth, and Our Lord's prayer says that what is done in heaven should be done on earth, then we know that God wills the Saints pray for us in heaven as well.

And since we know that Jesus is our example and since we know that Jesus constantly offers intercession for us in heaven, then we know that the Saints in heaven are imitating Jesus and offering intercession for us as well.

OLD TESTAMENT EVIDENCE

In the Maccabbees account, we find this record of a Saint in heaven making intercession for the Jews:

2 Macc 15:11 So he armed every one of them, not with defence of shield and spear, but with very good speeches and exhortations, and told them a dream worthy to be believed, whereby he rejoiced them all. 12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: 13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: 14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. 15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. 17 Thus being exhorted with the words of Judas, which were very good, and proper to stir up the courage, and strengthen the hearts of the young men, they resolved to fight, and to set upon them manfully: that valour might decide the matter, because the holy city and the temple were in danger.

OTHER EVIDENCE

LOGICAL

The Saints in heaven are the just made perfect who have confirmed their friendship with God and who now have access to God. They see Him face to face. Therefore, we believe their prayers will be heard on our behalf:

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

HISTORICAL

From the historical record, we find that the earliest Christians were already praying to Mary and the Saints:

I. Intercessory Power and Veneration of the Saints

"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).

"[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom." Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).
Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

De Maria,
Thank you so much.
That is the kind of evidence I'm interested in.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

And that the Saints are a cloud of witnesses which surrounds us.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Since we know that God wills us to pray for each other on earth, and Our Lord's prayer says that what is done in heaven should be done on earth, then we know that God wills the Saints pray for us in heaven as well.

And since we know that Jesus is our example and since we know that Jesus constantly offers intercession for us in heaven, then we know that the Saints in heaven are imitating Jesus and offering intercession for us as well.

De Maria

The cloud of witnesses is a term used and is like saying a cloud of birds (a flock or group) .. So in todays term of speak, it would be a group of witnesses.. (Luke 1:2) & (1 Peter 1:16)

The scripture is in reference of having had a group of witnesses that were eyewitnesses of The Word, both pretaining to the flesh and written evidence for us that is in The Word. The evidence of the weight that put aside all other weights that were of darkness, and who brought us light.. (Romans 3:12)

This concludes that what was written was witnessed and was evidence for us. The Word inspired by the Holy Spirit was God's way in communication to us. Chirst is the light to follow, and in HIM is the plummet=(weight) of righteousness = (straight line of truth)

Communication is in The Word & The will of God on earth as in heaven is righteousness.=TRUTH

`in Christ

[De Maria]

The cloud of witnesses is a term used and is like saying a cloud of birds (a flock or group) .. So in todays term of speak, it would be a group of witnesses.. (Luke 1:2) & (1 Peter 1:16)

The scripture is in reference of having had a group of witnesses that were eyewitnesses of The Word, both pretaining to the flesh and written evidence for us that is in The Word. The evidence of the weight that put aside all other weights that were of darkness, and who brought us light.. (Romans 3:12)

This concludes that what was written was witnessed and was evidence for us. The Word inspired by the Holy Spirit was God's way in communication to us. Chirst is the light to follow, and in HIM is the plummet=(weight) of righteousness = (straight line of truth)

Communication is in The Word & The will of God on earth as in heaven is righteousness.=TRUTH

`in Christ

There is a grain of truth in what you say. But the cloud of witnesses calls to mind Elisha's mountain of chariots.

2 Kings 6:16-18 (King James Version)

16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

18And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

We are always surrounded by God's saints.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[sndbay]

We are always surrounded by God's saints.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is true and those thousands are what we know as HIS angels. (Psalms 68:17)

saints 6918 are the fallen angels (Job 15:15)

saints 6944 holy hallowed (Dan 11:30)

saints 2623 kind godly (Psalms 30:4)(Psalms145:17)

saints 40 religious awe reverence(Romans 15:25)

angels 4397 representive (Psalms 91:11)

angels 32 messenger of God (Matthew 4:6)(Luke 4:10)

Revel 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (40= prayers from earth to God)
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. (saints 40 prayers from earth to God)

[De Maria]

That is true and those thousands are what we know as HIS angels. (Psalms 68:17)

saints 6918 are the fallen angels (Job 15:15)

saints 6944 holy hallowed (Dan 11:30)

saints 2623 kind godly (Psalms 30:4)(Psalms145:17)

saints 40 religious awe reverence(Romans 15:25)

angels 4397 representive (Psalms 91:11)

angels 32 messenger of God (Matthew 4:6)(Luke 4:10)

Revel 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (40= prayers from earth to God)
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. (saints 40 prayers from earth to God)

As you mentioned above, the word Saint simply means "holy".

saints 6944 holy hallowed (Dan 11:30)

We also consider the angels to be "holy" thus Saints. For instance, St. Michael, St. Gabriel and St. Rafael, the Archangels.

Note that the prayers of the saints came before God by the intercession of a saint. An angel.

Note also these martyred saints who prayed directly to God:
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And they received robes and instructions. They were alive and kicking and aware.

There's a whole other world out there sndbay, which we can't see. But they are in a war for our souls. It seems strange, don't you think, that people believe that their demons and evil spirits can hear us and respond to our words, but they believe that the good spirits of God's children are shackled.

Mighty strange.

[De Maria]

Actually, the reverse is true. Protestants and those religions which resulted from the Reformation believe that saints die and therefore you call the communion of saints prayer to dead people.

Whilst the rest of Christendom, Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Syriacs etc. etc. believe you can pray to Saints. And by the rest of Christendom, I mean 80% of the Christian world.

The Vatican recently put the number of Catholics in the world at 1.13 billion people.
Muslims more numerous than Catholics: Vatican | Top News | Reuters

The Eastern Orthodox Church is the second largest single Christian communion in the world with an estimated 225 million members worldwide.
Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are approximately 500 million Protestants in the world. {1}
Christian Protestantism - ReligionFacts

That doesn't even count the other ancient Christian religions. And easily accounts for many more Christians who pray to Saints than those who believe that Saints are dead.

[Tj3]

Actually, the reverse is true. Protestants and those religions which resulted from the Reformation believe that saints die and therefore you call the communion of saints prayer to dead people.

Are you claiming that the saints in heaven have living flesh?

[Fr_Chuck]

Who was with Jesus on the Mount before he accended. They seemed alive to me in the writing.

[arcura]

Sndbay and De Maria,
Thanks for the very interesting conversation.
Fr Chuck, Not Only were Moses and Elijah alive on the mountain with Jesus they also had bodies.
Jesus is in heaven with His body along with God's heavenly saints.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Not Only were Moses and Elijah alive on the mountain with Jesus they also had bodies.

Fred,

I commented to you this once before in another thread and did not get an answer.

What makes you think that Moses had a body of flesh?

[Wondergirl]

What makes you think that Moses had a body of flesh?

In Luke 9:30, Jesus is talking with Moses and Elijah who are described as "men," and were not described as a vision or apparitions. The word that is used to describe Moses and Elijah is the Greek aner. This word is used in the Bible 212 times, and, except for four instances, it is clearly used as a reference to male human beings. Also, we also know that Jesus Christ in his spiritual reality was able to manifest himself as a human being, and was able to be physically touched. (paraphased from evidenceoftruth.org)

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
You did a wonderful job of answering Tom Smith question for me.
The three apostles on the mountain with Jesus, Moses and Elijah saw three men, not three spirits who are invisible.
The answer is obvious. You saw it, I did but apparently others can not sometime see the obvious.
Thanks,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

In Luke 9:30, Jesus is talking with Moses and Elijah who are described as "men," and were not described as a vision or apparitions.

No one even suggested that they were visions or apparitions. If a person is a spirit, that makes the person no less a man, but because a person is a man does not mean that they have a body of flesh.

The question was specific because Fred said that Moses has a body, which suggests that he was in the flesh. You comments did not address that.

[Tj3]

Wondergirl,
You did a wonderful job of answering Tom Smith question for me.
The three apostles on the mountain with Jesus, Moses and Elijah saw three men, not three spirits who are invisible.

You think that spirits are invisible, Fred?

How do you explain Moses seeing God's backside?

Ex 33:21-23
21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."
NKJV

How do you explain many people seeing angels?

Gen 19:1
19:1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.
NKJV

Or are you saying that God and the angels have bodies of flesh also?

[Wondergirl]

No one even suggested that they were visions or apparitions. If a person is a spirit, that makes the person no less a man, but because a person is a man does not mean that they have a body of flesh.

Job 19:26

[Wondergirl]

Or are you saying that God and the angels have bodies of flesh also?

Were God and angels corporal beings on earth at one time?

[sndbay]

As you mentioned above, the word Saint simply means "holy".

There's a whole other world out there sndbay, which we can't see. But they are in a war for our souls. It seems strange, don't you think, that people believe that their demons and evil spirits can hear us and respond to our words, but they believe that the good spirits of God's children are shackled.

Mighty strange.

I believe... in using more then causion concerning praying to saints/angels... they do not sit at right hand of God, they were servants, they are messenger from God ... Pray unto the Father!

Hebrews 1:12-13-14 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Note:
The fulfillment of our walk in Christ

Remembering who has control, and who does ordain order in command of all things.

(Psalms 149:9 Proverbs 2:8) = 2623 saints /adjective = godly man, kind, faithful one

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Proverbs 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

We acknowledge the battle against good and evil, and the darkness/ down fall to reaping from the enticing words of deception. (a time given) when men here on earth are the servants as saints to execute upon what has been written = (communication) = The Word.. We do give thanks unto God for the communication, the labor that was brought forward by the works of those that followed HIM. ( Knowing that through HIM = THE WORD = THE FLESH = CHRIST JESUS ) we walk in labor to righteousness, towards putting darkness at the footstool of God ( Matthew 5:35-48)

(Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? )


Darkness fell upon, and did wear out the saints which are in heaven = those that were our example = those living saints in heaven = change was made in time and laws to being today, and we are given HIS hand in unity to walk in HIM with HIS power to overcome the darkness " if" we stay in the light, " if " we follow HIM...

(Dan 7:25 Dan 7:27) = 6922 saints /aramaic adjective = angels, holy

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (two periods of time divided)

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Stange it is, to walk or pray in the spirit of any other name then Christ Jesus .


I give all glory and praise of thankfulness to God, who sent the saints who brought us HIS message of hope, light and love..

[De Maria]

Are you claiming that the saints in heaven have living flesh?

I am claiming that Saints are alive in Christ, whether on earth or in heaven. Whether in the spirit or in the flesh.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?