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450donn · Feb 6, 2009, 01:21 PM

Thanks Jake, but I cannot take credit for it this time. That belongs to someone far smarter than me.

DominusVobiscum · Feb 6, 2009, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Fred, wondergirl,

Revelation the book that JOHN wrote...has NOT happened. We are the last Church the Lord Jesus spoke about. You are both in error..but good news. I have come to set you straight...now aren't you happy???

[QUOTE=classyT;1532004]Fred, wondergirl,

First off, I would like you to show me where in the Bible does it say that Revelation actually belongs in the Bible. Also, on a side note, please refer me to were in the Bible does it say that Luke wrote Luke, And Mark wrote Mark. Please note that there is no inspired table of contents to tell us what books belong in the Bible. Now where in the bible does it talk about this last Church? You can't possibly be speaking of the "Church" mentioned in 1 Timothy 3;15. "...the Church of the living God, the PILLAR and GROUND of the truth."
You can't possibly expect me or anyone else to believe that these 75,000+ separate denominations of churches that can't even agree on something as important as baptism, who have conflicting doctrines, are The Church described in the Bible!

"You are both in error" No you are in error. By what authority do you judge that these people are in error?

"Can the blind lead the blind? Do they not both fall into the pit?" - Luke 6;39

~ PAX CHRISTUS

450donn · Feb 6, 2009, 03:59 PM

Respectfully DominusVobiscum You are not answering the OP's question. If you choose not to believe that the inspired words of God are contained in the bible, that is your right as a free person. However as Christians we do believe that. Certain parts of it's teachings come to disagreements because man not God has built religions and the doctrine they contain. If you are attending a church that teaches the whole, complete word of God and not the parts that suit them then you could fully understand and enter to the discussions here freely.
To directly answer your question. The bible in and of it self does contain true authorship of many of the books. Revelation 1:1-3 for example, Philemon 19 is another example, 2 Thessalonians 3:17 is another. Need I go on?
Classy was explaining that certain people were in error, I explained further why that is true. So please back up your claim that she was wrong with scripture if you can.

450donn · Feb 6, 2009, 04:09 PM

Now, to the OP's original question. There are many many excellent teachings by well known and respected bible scholars on the Book of Revelation. If you are interested in a couple, look up Grant Jefferies or Bible Prophesy revealed, John MacArthur for another and get their teachings on the subject. You can also look up Dr Jeremiah for a third option. While there are differences of opinions as to exactly what some of the passages might mean to a person they do believe that the book of Revelation has not yet come to pass. These are things of the end of days. Heck, if you want to understand more in a more modern context start reading the Left Behind series. While it is totally fictional and highly stylized there is truth in what he is trying to convey to the readers about the end times. There are a few religions that do not believe in the end times preferring to believe that the great tribulation is what we are seeing today. Or that it will not happen until Jesus returns to the earth or some other such non sense. If you get some good teaching series on the subject, I am sure you will understand further how the end plays out and how close we truly are to the end of this age.

Wondergirl · Feb 6, 2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by 450donn

Now, to the OP's original question. There are many many excellent teachings by well known and respected bible scholars on the Book of Revelation. If you are interested in a couple, look up Grant Jefferies or Bible Prophesy revealed, John MacArthur for another and get their teachings on the subject. You can also look up Dr Jeremiah for a third option. while there are differences of opinions as to exactly what some of the passages might mean to a person they do believe that the book of Revelation has not yet come to pass. These are things of the end of days., Heck, if you want to understand more in a more modern context start reading the Left Behind series. While it is totally fictional and highly stylized there is truth in what he is trying to convey to the readers about the end times. There are a few religions that do not believe in the end times preferring to believe that the great tribulation is what we are seeing today. Or that it will not happen until Jesus returns to the earth or some other such non sense. If you get some good teaching series on the subject, I am sure you will understand further how the end plays out and how close we truly are to the end of this age.

Please be clear. Those are beliefs by conservative, even fundamentalist, Christian churches. Many mainstream Christian churches do not believe in the End Times, the Rapture, etc.

450donn · Feb 6, 2009, 04:46 PM

WG please correct your comment to read Catholics, and a few other religions. Most mainstream Christians do believe in the Rapture and in how the book of Revelation tells it.
Thanks

Wondergirl · Feb 6, 2009, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by 450donn

WG please correct your comment to read Catholics, and a few other religions. Most mainstream Christians do believe in the Rapture and in how the book of Revelation tells it.
Thanks

Please name the Christian groups that do. Here's my list --

Lutherans don't, United Methodists don't, Episcopalians don't, Presbyterians don't, Catholics don't, Unitarians don't, Quakers don't, UCCers don't, Unity Christ Centers don't, Northern Baptists don't, American Baptists don't, Congregationalists don't.

"Independant Free" or "Bible Church" or "non-denominational" or "Pentecostal" or "Evangelical" (unless it's Evangelical and Reformed) as well as Assembly of God and Southern Baptist -- rural churches and big-city megachurches -- do.

The idea of a Rapture is a recent thing. From Wikipedia --

"The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritans Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pretribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first understood the pretribulation rapture in 1827."

arcura · Feb 6, 2009, 06:34 PM

450donn,
History tell us that most of Revelation has already happened such as 666 (Nero) he is dead and long gone. So is the persecuting Roman empire.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

sndbay · Feb 7, 2009, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn,
History tell us that most of Revelation has already happened such as 666 (Nero) he is dead and long gone. So is the persecuting Roman empire.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

Fred I am alittle surprised to hear you say this...

We can read where it says that John was in spirit, and it was said to be The Lord's Day..

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

arcura · Feb 7, 2009, 03:55 PM

sndbay,
So!
That does not indicate that we should set aside the facts of history.
Most of what Reveleation predicted has come to pass long ago.
Peace and kmkindnemsss,
Fred

Wondergirl · Feb 7, 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by sndbay

We can read where it says that John was in spirit, and it was said to be The Lord's Day

And that tells us what?

arcura · Feb 7, 2009, 04:24 PM

Wondergirl.
Good question.
What's the answer?
Fred

Akoue · Feb 7, 2009, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Please name the Christian groups that do. Here's my list --

Lutherans don't, United Methodists don't, Episcopalians don't, Presbyterians don't, Catholics don't, Unitarians don't, Quakers don't, UCCers don't, Unity Christ Centers don't, Northern Baptists don't, American Baptists don't, Congregationalists don't.

"Independant Free" or "Bible Church" or "non-denominational" or "Pentecostal" or "Evangelical" (unless it's Evangelical and Reformed) as well as Assembly of God and Southern Baptist -- rural churches and big-city megachurches -- do.

The idea of a Rapture is a recent thing. From Wikipedia --

"The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritans Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pretribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first understood the pretribulation rapture in 1827."

Right!

And don't forget: more than 500 million Orthodox don't.

arcura · Feb 7, 2009, 07:10 PM

Akoue,
That includes 1 billion more that don't
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

galveston · Feb 7, 2009, 08:37 PM

May I respectfully say that I think all of you are missing the really important part of the Book of Revelation?
I refer to the first four chapters and the letters to the seven churches in Asia.
In these letters Jesus Himself tells us what qualities He requires in a church in order for it to represent Him on this Earth.
Those churches that fail to measure up must either repent or their light will be removed.
For those of us who plan to leave at the Rapture, all the rest of the book will not have any bearing of us.
If we stay here, then we are in real trouble.

arcura · Feb 7, 2009, 08:51 PM

galvestonm
That is IF you believe in the rapture.
I certainly do not it is not a biblical teaching.
Yes revelation does give us direction on what a the people in a church should be like.
But that has nothing to do with any rapture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maggie 3 · Feb 7, 2009, 09:26 PM

Just as Genesis is the book of beginning so Revelation is the book of completion.
In it, we see how God finalizes the divine program of redemption and vindicatles
His holy name before all creation. Revelation also features high moments of worship
Which the residents of heaven and the saints of God praise the Lord for His holy character
And righteous judgments. These extraordinary times of worship are usually presented as joyful songs of praise. Revelation was originally written to seven local churches in
Asia Minor, but its message applies to all christians everwhere. Jesus is coming
Again in great power and glory, and His certain return should motivate us every day to Spirit filled, loving action on His behalf.
Revelation centers around awesome visions and extraordinary symbols of resurrected
Christ, who alone has authority to judge the earth, to remake it and to rule it in
Righteousness.

AS you read revelation, watch for several life principles that play an important roll in this book .{An eager anticipation of the Lord's return in this book}Rev.30

{Obedience aleays brings blessings] Rev. 21

[The dark moments of our life will last only as long as is necessary for God to
Accomplish His purpose in us] Rev. 7

[You reap what you sow, more than you sow, and later than you sow.] 6.

This is some of what Dr. Charles Stanley has written on Revelation.

For your info The apostle John wrote Revlation during his exile on the island of Patmos.
Most scholars believe the book was written around A>D> 90-95.
I suggest you get an easy reading bible like the Living Bible or Living Translation.

Blessings,

Maggie 3

savedsinner7 · Feb 7, 2009, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

galvestonm
That is IF you believe in the rapture.
I certainly do not it is not a biblical teaching.
Yes revelation does give us direction on what a the people in a church should be like.
But that has nothing to do with any rapture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Rapture IS Biblical. It will happen.

1 corinthians 15
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

1 thessalonians 4
The Hope of the Resurrection
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[f] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[h] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

arcura · Feb 7, 2009, 10:15 PM

Galveston,
Sorry, but I can not believe in multiple comings of Christ.
The bible says that there will be only one.
Read the book "THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX" by Harry Bethel.
It biblically proves that there will be n rapture.
There are several books out that prove that including "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

450donn · Feb 8, 2009, 08:41 AM

Fred,
You have argued that before and it still is funny to me. Jesus sounds a trumpet and those living and dead in Christ will rise. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot on the earth does it? The second coming of Christ is at the battle of Armageddon and judgment day. Do you really want to live through all of the seven years of tribulations that are taught in Revelation? I certainly do not.