[frangipanis]

As I'm no expert on this, I'd be curious to hear what others think of this link on Gaza/Israeli Options:
Gaza: Israeli Options

[tomder55]

frangipanis

Hamas does what their terror-masters in Tehran tell them to do . Note that Hamas leader in exile Khaled Meshaal met with a senior official from Iran in Damascus on Wednesday last week . After their talks Hezbollah began launching missiles into Israel from Lebanon.

Whatever Israel does I think is constrained by a timeline . After Jan. 20 there is no guarantee of US support. As it is ; Israel asked the US to permit overflight of Iraq for them to take out Iran's nuke sites ,and requested to purchase bunker buster bombs .This request was rejected by the Bush Adm. .

Israel's options do not look good to me. I suspect that they will be forced to end this degrading of Hamas short of their goals. Hamas will be slightly weakened temporarily but will remain the leaders in Gaza ;and possibly all of "Palestine " in a short while. They will be resupplied in the name of "humanitarian" aid including cement to rebuild any tunnels under the Philadelphia line destroyed by the Israeli's .

Meanwhile it looks to me that the world collectively will not do anything substantive to prevent an Iranian regional hegemony that will plague the world for at least the rest of our lifetimes. Once Iran has nukes proliferation in the region will be out of control.

[excon]

Hello tom:

Didn't the dufus say that he isn't going to let Iran have nukes on his watch?? I think he did...

Just another failure, in a LONG line of failures... If it wasn't so sad and dangerous for my grandchildren, I'd give you a bwa, ha ha.

[tomder55]

Yeah ,imagine the outcry if Bush had taken unilateral action .

Instead he went along with multilateral diplomacy manifested in the so called "EU3 "... just like the world wanted .

[excon]

just like the world wanted .

Hello tom:

Are you telling me that the dufus does what the world wants?? Really??

Now you get a Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

[frangipanis]

Thanks for your considered opinion, Tom. I appreciated it.

There may still be a few options not yet explored. This paints a slightly different picture of Hamas and shows the potential for dialogue still exists:


We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled

The Times
December 31, 2008

It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions. But the events of the past few days seem to have made this more unlikely than ever. That is the challenge for the new administration in Washington and for its European allies.

We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas | William Sieghart - Times Online


And this heartfelt joint call for reconciliation from Israeli and Palestinian families shows there are people who care for both sides:

A joint call for reconciliation and peace from Israeli and Palestinian Families | open Democracy News Analysis

[tomder55]

Gaza may be wall to wall secularists ;but they elected a leadership that is taking their orders from the clerics in Tehran . Hamas;created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, means "Islamic Resistance Movement". So although they don't tell the Western Press their goals are religious that doesn't mean they are not directed by them .

But all that is really irrelevant to the point that Hamas is conceived and dedictated to the goal of the destruction of Israel. Had they stuck to providing the social services that they use for ancillary propaganda then perhaps there would be a basis for a one on negotiations .But does anyone seriously think Israel should "negotiate " with people dedicated to their destruction ?

Let me tell you what is going to happen . A decision has been made in Tehran to escalate the war to northern Israel by ordering Hezbollah to start rocketing like the summer 2006. The IAF will not be as effective in the thick cloud cover of winter over the Bekaa Valley at targeting the rocket launchers . The rockets will starts against northern Israel. And the escalation may soon extend to Palestinian militia created by Syria on the Golan Heights.
Hamas is boasting they will never surrender .But reports I've read make it likely that the Hamas leadership may have already fled Gaza early in the conflict to Sinai at al-Arish .
They will extract their pint of blood from the Jews before the world community puts it's foot down and insists that Israel stop its "aggression ".
Then after a period of UN monitored hudna the whole process will begin again . Death by a thousand cuts. The demographics do not favor Israel ;nor does the coming political climate.

[frangipanis]

Hamas have other reasons for negotiating peace with Israel, Tom:

Hamas, more than a mere terrorist group since the 2007 coup, now has the interests of a "nation-state in development." Islamist radicals are no exception to the reality that the consolidation of political power requires administrative infrastructure to be grounded in a functional economy, because the permanent exercise of sovereignty requires, among other things, revenues from taxes to keep government institutions such as tribunals, police departments and prisons, operational, to ultimately ensure that the State has a monopoly on all force.
Hamas' Interests

[tomder55]

If they have an interest in acting as responsible leaders on a sovereign nation then they should've ceased firing rockets into Israel;and quit using cement provided with humanitarian assistance to build in excess of 200 fortified tunnels for smuggling in Iranian provided weaponry. . What would the US do if a constant barrage of rockets were fired into American towns by Mexico ? Hamas brought this on the people of Gaza themselves.

[frangipanis]

For sure. No argument here. As the article suggests, perpetuating a culture of violence is about as effective as shooting yourself in the foot.

If enough people demand peace through peaceful means, the extremists on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict who hold the rest to ransom, will eventually lose their power base and their cause lose momentum.

We at least get to choose our battles, which is why I support strengthening the voice of those who work towards achieving peace through dialogue, increased mutual understanding and cooperation. As long as there are people wanting to achieve peace, there's hope.

You have another suggestion?

[tomder55]

We are in agreement that you need reasonable people at both ends of a bargaining table. For starters as an act of good faith why not revoke the passages in the Hamas charter (there are many) that states it's goal is Israeli destruction ?

Here for example is the complete Article 13 :

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."
From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another,demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed.
Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?
And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper. Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it:
The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow. (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

As you see . The very idea of a peaceful resolution to the problems violates the charter they live by.

Edit : decided to add other tidbits from the charter :

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Can Israel really negotiate seriously with people who invoke the slanderous and completely discredited "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" ?

[speechlesstx]

A couple of updates, one typical...

Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

The IDF said that since terminal activity is coordinated with UNRWA and the Red Cross, Israel could do nothing to prevent such raids, Israel Radio reported.

Hamas steals aid from their own people and sells it to the highest bidder, where's the outrage?

On the other hand, cheers to Canada...

Canada stood alone before a United Nations human rights council yesterday, the only one among 47 nations to oppose a motion condemning the Israeli military offensive in Gaza.

[TexasParent]

On the other hand, cheers to Canada...

A tear comes to my eye every time an American says something nice about Canada... :) Thank you, and God save the Queen :D

[frangipanis]

Is this what you want, Tom?

The resolution, presented by the United Kingdom and adopted as Israel's offensive moved into its 14th day, emphasized that Palestinian and Israeli civilian populations must be protected, voiced grave concern at the heavy civilian casualties and the deepening humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and condemned all violence and hostilities directed against civilians and all acts of terrorism.

The Israeli operation has so far killed 758 people in Gaza, of whom 257 were children and 56 women, with 3,100 wounded, 1,080 of them children and 452 women, according to Palestinian reports cited as credible by UN officials.

The resolution called for renewed efforts to achieve a comprehensive peace with two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace with secure and recognized borders. The West Bank-based Palestine Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas accepts the two-state solution, while Hamas, which seized control of Gaza in 2007, does not recognize Israel's right to exist. The resolution “encourages tangible steps towards intra-Palestinian reconciliation.”

Security Council overwhelmingly calls for immediate Gaza ceasefire

[tomder55]

I don't consider any casualty counts by the Palestinians as reliable.

The UN is a biased player in this game. They have sat idly by as observers and the so called enforcement arm of UN resolution 1701 in Lebanon while Hezbollah rearmed and has done nothing about it .

I want Israel to continue to degrade Hamas' ability to smuggle rockets into Gaza and to weaken the Hamas military structure.

Hamas on the other hand wants a cease fire to buy them time to resupply and for the change in the American leadership to take place.They believe that Obama will offer a deal to Hamas and Cairo and to the Hamas terror-masters Tehran that will satisfy all parties except Jerusalem.Hamas will offer any deal but live up to none.

Is this what you want, Tom?.


The resolution called for renewed efforts to achieve a comprehensive peace with two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace with secure and recognized borders. The West Bank-based Palestine Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas accepts the two-state solution, while Hamas, which seized control of Gaza in 2007, does not recognize Israel's right to exist. The resolution “encourages tangible steps towards intra-Palestinian reconciliation.”

Yes I accept the concept of a 2 state solution with the Palestinians recognizing Israel's right to exist and a rejection of the Palestian demand for a so called " right of return " to land inside Israel pre-1967 territory.

[frangipanis]

As a middle power it's in our interests to support the UN. And although it often gets it wrong, the UN is the best forum we have for our collective voice to be heard and to solve problems on an international scale that require cooperation. Even Bush realised he couldn't do without UN support.

Moreover, when a humanitarian crisis exists as is currently the case in the Gaza, there is going to be human outcry for a cease fire. If you're satisfied with the UN resolution, why not support a cease fire?



That's an appalling cartoon, by the way.

[tomder55]

So far Hamas has refused any terms of cease fire that guarantees they woudn't fire rockets into Israel.So the 'shape of the table ' negotiations center on how many rockets fired into Israel constitutes a cease fire.

Hamas wants IDF withdrawal and port and borders open so they can rearm. Israel says no until a 3rd party ;either UN Blue Helmets , EU ,NATO etc . Act as sentry to insure non-military goods are imported . Will Obama provide US troops as human shields to guarantee the cease fire is not violated ? I don't think so .

But the cease fire is coming in a couple of days in terms that Hamas and Tehran want. They launched anti-tank weapons from the UN compound and Israeli troops fired back creating nice imagery for the terrorist sympathising MSM to loop during their evening broadcasts.

There is one thing Israel has to get done before a cease fire is imposed on them . Reports say that the Hamas leadership that has not fled is hiding out in a bunker under the emergency room of the Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City.Said Siam ;the torturer, mass-murderering Interior Minister of Gaza ventured out of the bunker. Now he is waiting in line for his virgins. In the few days that they have left the Israelis need to reach the hospital and ferret out the vermin in the bunker.

That is the best I think they can achieve before BO comes in and begins negotiations for a grand bargain with the terror masters that would put a stamp of permanence and legitimacy to Iranian hegemony . As we all know ; the Mahdi-hatter ,Mahmoud Ahamamadjihad thinks Israel's existence is "not feasable" .
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[tomder55]

So Israel will vote today to unilaterally cease fire. How will Hamas react ?

Hamas threatens to fight on if Israel ceases fire unilaterally - Yahoo! Canada News


Why am I not surprised ?

[frangipanis]

That page couldn't load, Tom.

Tragically, moderate leadership is needed on both sides before anything can really change.