[nauticalstar420]

On an individual level I've seen born and raised U.S. citizens live in filth and I'd rather give credit when it's due and not all Mexicans are guilty of trashing neighborhoods. There is no doubt that if we could force a higher standard on Mexico govt that in return they can learn to do better. In fact I put the link in my original post to demonstrate they (Mexico govt) are hypocritical to call us out for not being environmentally conscience. The other issue is that Mexico has plenty of potential. With our U.S. laws on their books we would see things work for the better on both ends.



Bobby

If Mexico was to become part of the U.S. like you propose, then we'd have no choice but to make them citizens. How do you think making them all citizens would help the U.S.

[BABRAM]

FTA:
You make the assumption Mexico wants to become a part of the US. You also make the assumption all the illegal immigrants into this country are Mexican. You've also not considered the extreme difference in culture and ethics which would have to be overcome in order to take advantage of the natural resources in Mexico. Mexico is on it's way up in the world (thanks in large part to NAFTA) but they still aren't first-world. They still don't have a reasonable govt, suffer from a lot of poverty, crime, drugs, etc. I don't know about you, but I think we've got enough corruption in our govt, enough crime, poverty and drugs in our own country that we don't need to INVITE more in.

Nope! I did not assume this. I left this open for someone to suggest otherwise. Thank you! In actuality, the Mexican govt is influenced by wealthy families in Mexico and the U.S. and those in both do not want this. Another reason is historical pride of both nations. Extreme culture and ethics? Are you kidding me? Have you seen overt Hispanic population in the southwest U.S.. Please! No disrespect, but that was a very poor excuse. It's called acclimation.



Bobby

[BABRAM]

If Mexico was to become part of the U.S., like you propose, then we'd have no choice but to make them citizens. How do you think making them all citizens would help the U.S.?

Just like our families that work and make purchases it stimulates the economy. They would get taxed into the system. Likewise our large companies would open up to their workforce in Mexico without interference. Nike was down there years ago, but unfortunately offered the Mexicans slave wages and got removed. The laws on the books would have to protect the Mexican worker as well. Again checks and balances to make this successful and productive for everyone in the long haul.



Bobby

[nauticalstar420]

Just like our families that work and make purchases it stimulates the economy. They would get taxed into the system. Likewise our large companies would open up to their workforce in Mexico without interference. Nike was down there years ago, but unfortunately offered the Mexicans slave wages and got removed. The laws on the books would have to protect the Mexican worker as well. Again checks and balances to make this successful and productive for everyone in the long haul.



Bobby

But that is, if they wanted to work. The migrant workers that come here are great, but there are also some that come here and don't want to work, they'd rather be on welfare. You don't think a lot of them would just rather be on welfare that the workers tax dollars would have to pay for?

[jillianleab]

Nope! I did not assume this. I left this open for someone to suggest otherwise. Thank you! In actuality, the Mexican govt is influenced by wealthy families in Mexico and the U.S. and those in both do not want this. Another reason is historical pride of both nations. Extreme culture and ethics? Are you kidding me?! Have you seen overt Hispanic population in the southwest U.S.. Please! No disrespect, but that was a very poor excuse. It's called acclimation.



Bobby

Gee... I'm so glad to have engaged you.

Yes, the Mexican and US govts are both influenced by rich families and history, so what makes you think they would want to become one big nation? If you call it "Mexico" the US loses it's sense of nationalism, if you call it "US" the Mexicans lose their nationalism. You call it "Mexi-us" and BOTH lose their nationalism. So... what could possibly make you think this would be a good idea?

Culture and ethics is NOT a poor excuse; and your example of the Hispanic population in the SW, or the SW in general doesn't apply. The areas you refer to are commonly called "America's Heartland" and there is a STRONG sense of American nationalism among the US citizens there. The Hispanic immigrants in that area have adapted to US culture and ethics because they are IN THE US! And even at that point, many have done so reluctantly and with limitations. In case you haven't noticed, Mexico and the US have very different cultures; we have different values, opinions on social behavior, business behavior and so on. Would some acclimate to US culture and values? Sure, some of the immigrants who have come here have done just that. But MANY of the ones who have come here have held strong to their nationalism and pride, despite taking advantage of US policy and opportunity. So what makes you think an entire nation would "acclimate"? Integrating two different cultures is hard, especially when neither one wants it. But you acknowledge that neither govt wants it, so what's your point again?

Oh, and so nice of you to gloss over the points I made about crime and poverty...

[BABRAM]

Gee... I'm so glad to have engaged you.

Yes, the Mexican and US govts are both influenced by rich families and history, so what makes you think they would want to become one big nation? If you call it "Mexico" the US loses it's sense of nationalism, if you call it "US" the Mexicans lose their nationalism. You call it "Mexi-us" and BOTH lose their nationalism. So.... what could possibly make you think this would be a good idea?

Culture and ethics is NOT a poor excuse; and your example of the Hispanic population in the SW, or the SW in general doesn't apply. The areas you refer to are commonly called "America's Heartland" and there is a STRONG sense of American nationalism among the US citizens there. The Hispanic immigrants in that area have adapted to US culture and ethics because they are IN THE US! And even at that point, many have done so reluctantly and with limitations. In case you haven't noticed, Mexico and the US have very different cultures; we have different values, opinions on social behavior, business behavior and so on. Would some acclimate to US culture and values? Sure, some of the immigrants who have come here have done just that. But MANY of the ones who have come here have held strong to their nationalism and pride, despite taking advantage of US policy and opportunity. So what makes you think an entire nation would "acclimate"? Integrating two different cultures is hard, especially when neither one wants it. But you acknowledge that neither govt wants it, so what's your point again?

Oh, and so nice of you to gloss over the points I made about crime and poverty...

I'm glad to have this conversation. I'm on the productive end of this because I have a possible solution that has not been tried and admit it obviously would not be popular, nor likely. I'm not glossing over your points, respectfully, it's not worth it for me to point out all our own criminal activity in the U.S. or lack of values. Being Jewish I understand how to acclimate with best of anybody of other ethnicities. What I'm hearing is that many of my fellow U.S. citizens have a fear of Mexicans. Baloney (or Tacos)! Besides since when did the U.S. stop being a melting pot (or at least stir fry)? What's next? The removal of African Americans?



Bobby

[BABRAM]

But that is, if they wanted to work. The migrant workers that come here are great, but there are also some that come here and dont want to work, they'd rather be on welfare. You dont think a lot of them would just rather be on welfare that the workers tax dollars would have to pay for?

Oh they work! It's just that they send the money back to the families in Mexico. Welfare is a problem that doesn't know race. We are on the same page. I'd reduce welfare in a heartbeat and that would include everyone.



Bobby

[nauticalstar420]

Oh they work! It's just that they send the money back to the families in Mexico. Welfare is a problem that doesn't know race. We are on the same page. I'd reduce welfare in a heartbeat and that would include everyone.



Bobby

There are some people that actually do need it. Some of the Mexicans even do need it, but not when they are ABLE to work, and too lazy to. Trust me, there are quite a few that don't work, and just live off welfare.

I mean there are some people on welfare that need it, and there are some people on welfare that really don't. On that issue, where do we draw the line? Its like they're just giving it to everybody that applies for it, whether they actually need it or not.

I agree though, it needs to be reduced, and badly.

[BABRAM]

There are some people that actually do need it. Some of the Mexicans even do need it, but not when they are ABLE to work, and too lazy to. Trust me, there are quite a few that dont work, and just live off of welfare.

I mean there are some people on welfare that need it, and there are some people on welfare that really dont. On that issue, where do we draw the line? Its like they're just giving it to everybody that applies for it, whether they actually need it or not.

I agree though, it needs to be reduced, and badly.

As we both know the welfare system got out of hand decades ago. I'm sure it's not what Roosevelt had in mind that would come to fruition. The far left liberals probably like the status quot, but the guidelines need to be revised. Anyone lazy and found guilty by a committee ruling should lose their welfare rights for a lifetime.


Bobby

[nauticalstar420]

Anyone lazy and found guilty by a committee ruling should lose their welfare rights for a lifetime.


Bobby

I agree they should. But I don't think that the steps are taken to make sure that people are able to work, and not just being lazy.

[jillianleab]

I'm glad to have this conversation. I'm on the productive end of this because I have a possible solution that has not been tried and admit it obviously would not be popular, nor likely. I'm not glossing over your points, respectfully, it's not worth for me to point out all our own criminal activity in the U.S. or lack of values. Being Jewish I understand how to acclimate with best of anybody of other ethnicities. What I'm hearing is that many of my fellow U.S. citizens have a fear of Mexicans. Baloney (or Tacos)! Besides since when did the U.S. stop being a melting pot (or at least stir fry)?

Bobby

Did you miss the part in my post where I said:

I think we've got enough corruption in our govt, enough crime, poverty and drugs in our own country that we don't need to INVITE more in.

I'm not an idiot, I don't think America is perfect and free from crime/poverty/corruption. I simply think it is foolish to invite MORE crime/poverty/corruption into our nation. We've got enough problems of our own. You, on the other hand have suggested we make Mexico a state... sounds like an invitation to me.

And sorry, but I don't think people have a "fear of Mexicans". I'll point out to you again that not all illegal immigrants are Mexican, so maybe what you meant to say was "fear of brown people". I still disagree. It has nothing to do with fear or skin color, or culture or tacos, it has to do with several million illegal immigrants in our country. What part of "illegal" is so difficult to understand? You ask when America stopped being a melting pot, but in your previous post you point out that the US SW has a huge Hispanic influence. How do you get Hispanic influence in a melting pot? Hmmmmmm?? So which is it?

And this:

What's next? The removal of African Americans?

Is called trolling and points out your ignorance. It's not about "brown people" or "black people" or "yellow people" it's about ILLEGAL people.

[BABRAM]

Did you miss the part in my post where I said:



I'm not an idiot, I don't think America is perfect and free from crime/poverty/corruption. I simply think it is foolish to invite MORE crime/poverty/corruption into our nation. We've got enough problems of our own. You, on the other hand have suggested we make Mexico a state... sounds like an invitation to me.

It is an invitation. An invitation to the good in people. You can call yourself an idiot. I suggested a solution. So far all you came up with is how bad others are.

And sorry, but I don't think people have a "fear of Mexicans".

I think you had the board snookered. Amazing. For awhile there all you spoke of was negatives. In fact, I still haven't heard one positive.

I'll point out to you again that not all illegal immigrants are Mexican, so maybe what you meant to say was "fear of brown people".

Keep up please. We were talking about Mexico and the fence topic.

I still disagree.

Good luck with your fence project.

It has nothing to do with fear or skin color, or culture or tacos, it has to do with several million illegal immigrants in our country.

Oh you mean the ones from Mexico... right?

What part of "illegal" is so difficult to understand?

What part of sending them back to Mexico only to come back two weeks later don't you understand? BTW, as a sponsor, I've been through the legal immigration system. Have you?

You ask when America stopped being a melting pot, but in your previous post you point out that the US SW has a huge Hispanic influence. How do you get Hispanic influence in a melting pot? Hmmmmmm?? So which is it?

For most people in the US it's the melting pot (or stir fry). My solution was about legalization so that the issue is put behind us. Hello again! Hispanics originally from Mexico make up a part of this great country and historically were here before Caucasians. Do you really think they are going to be cut off from the families they have in Mexico. Think again!

And this:

Is called trolling and points out your ignorance. It's not about "brown people" or "black people" or "yellow people" it's about ILLEGAL people.

Why would I need to troll? Need I remind you thus far your argument is, "I simply think it is foolish to invite MORE crime/poverty/corruption into our nation."




Bobby:)

[ETWolverine]

Back to the original issue of this thread... Why is the USA required to be more environmentally aware than other countries unto the point of creating a national security weakness? Why are WE required to worry about migrant species and leave our borders open when other countries are free to secure their borders by whatever means they see fit? We are we, the USA, required to commit national suicide to please the leftist wackos? Has anyone spoken to Iran, Cuba, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Turkey, Egypt, North Korea, Vietnam, or any other country in the world about how they secure their borders and the effect it has on the environment? And would they care if you did?

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

It had to happen...



Which is worse for this environment, a fence or thousands upon thousands of illegals overrunning the land, letting campfires burn out of control, killing whatever they can find to eat and otherwise trashing the place?

I suppose the answer to that depends whether it comes from somebody who supports and advocates a system of government characterized by dictatorship, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism; who wants to exploit cheap labor, or a humanitarian who realizes the need to balance human action with the environment

[excon]

I simply think it is foolish to invite MORE crime/poverty/corruption into our nation.

Hello:

This isn't addressed to you specifically, my fav jillian, but you hit the nail on the head, and I want to use you.

In my view, the discussion turns on the point you made. We are unable to define just who it is that's crossing our southern border. I think most of 'em are leaf blowers. The people on the other side think most of 'em are crooks.

Now come on, people. I don't deny that some crooks come over. Hopefully, you don't deny that some lettuce pickers get through too.

Ok, I'm no idiot (contrary to popular opinion). I don't think we need MORE crooks, and if most of are, then STOP 'em. On the other hand, I think we can use all the dishwashers and nanny's we can get.

So, I wonder if it's sooooo hard to get a demographic on those who cross. I actually think we can. I don't think it's hard at all. I actually think we did. I actually think the demographic supports MY conclusion.

I would be happy to change my mind, if you can show me a demographic that shows most of the crossers are criminals. Showing me that a small part of them are crooks, though (which ain't no surprise to me), isn't going to change my mind.

Now, I know you, on the other side, THINK that you're being invaded by really bad people. However, BUT FOR their illegal border crossing, I believe most of the illegals bring a work and family ethic that supports the views we as Americans hold dear. Indeed, THEY, like ANY immigrant group that has crossed before (including YOURS) make America as great as it is.

In my view, since the demographics DON'T support your view, I think your view stems from racism.

excon

[speechlesstx]

In my view, since the demographics DON'T support your view, I think your view stems from racism.

Hello excon the science mon, I don't see it as racism at all, not to say that it isn't racism for SOME people - which I believe to be a minority. I love the Mexican people and I understand that many if not most do come with the character and values that made us a great nation. To me it's a plain and simple necessity to secure the borders. Period.

Steve

[jillianleab]

Obviously you all have misinterpreted what I've written. No where have I said ALL immigrants are crooks/druggies/bad people. I'm well aware that many of them come to this country seeking a better life. However, leaving an open border allows the undesireables to come across too. If we eliminate illegal crossing, we can ensure the people coming here are the lettuce pickers my buddy excon loves so much. :) I'm not against immigration, I'm against ILLEGAL immigration. I've posted in other threads that I don't think all illegals should be rounded up and deported (much to ETW's dismay), but the situation is out of control. As a nation we need to be aware of who is coming into our country.

Keep up please. We were talking about Mexico and the fence topic.

I beg your pardon, a$$, but you are the one who brought up the "fear of Mexicans". Let me refresh your memory.

What I'm hearing is that many of my fellow U.S. citizens have a fear of Mexicans.

Oopsie! Looks like you're the one who turned the conversation that way! And then you had the audacity to imply "we" will try to get rid of all the African Americans! Sounds like trolling to me...

I still haven't heard one positive.

What positives do you want to hear? That a lot of immigrants come here to make a better life for themselves and their families? That they have more opportunities here than in their home country (which you keep referring to as Mexico, when it's not always Mexico)? That their children are given better educations here? That they have access to clean drinking water, fresh food, and in general, a safe environment? That not all of them are criminals waiting to steal the shirt off your back? That some are doing jobs "Americans won't do"? I'm well aware of all these things.

Oh you mean the ones from Mexico... right?

Mexico, Hondorus, Colombia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Belize, Panama, Venezuela, China, Korea... Sorry bud, it's not just Mexicans coming here illegally.

My solution was about legalization so that the issue is put behind us.

Legalization of what? You reference your "solution" but in your previous posts you only ever say,

I have a possible solution that has not been tried and admit it obviously would not be popular, nor likely.

Care to elaborate?

Need I remind you thus far your argument is, "I simply think it is foolish to invite MORE crime/poverty/corruption into our nation."

My argument is that national security is more important that a couple of antelope.

Excon, I know you said your post isn't directed specifically at me, but this:

I think your view stems from racism.

Is highly offensive. It is not racist to want secure borders. It is not racist to want eliminate illegal immigration and allow legal immigration into the country.

And on that note, I'm done here. Unsubscribing as soon as I hit "submit answer".

[excon]

It is not racist to want secure borders. It is not racist to want eliminate illegal immigration and allow legal immigration into the country.And on that note, I'm done here. Unsubscribing as soon as I hit "submit answer".

Hello again, jillian:

I agree, my accusation is offensive.

But, we DON'T disagree on the solution, which is a secure border. If the conversation was about that, then I couldn't loft my charge.
But it isn't... It's about the people and who they are. It's about how dirty their city's are... That's racism. I don't know how more delicately I could put it.

excon

[inthebox]

Maybe the Mexican government's real concern over a fence is that illegal immigrant will be the endangered species.

Like any group of people, there will be a certain % that is criminal. Mexican, white, black etc...

e.g.

Hidden cost of illegal immigration: ID theft - The Red Tape Chronicles - MSNBC.com - I know a puff piece, but from the msm.

But...

Excluding the law that is broken coming over here ILLEGALLY, isn't it our [USA] right as a sovreign nation, during a global war on terrorism, to decide who we let in?




Grace and Peace

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

You may be 100% right that ALL of them are just leaf blowers. BUT I DON'T CARE. It doesn't matter to me what they want to do here. They are here illegally. Therefore they are criminals.

There are plenty of immigrants who are here legally who would do those same jobs but who can't because the jobs are being given to the illegals for lower wages. There a plenty of citizens who would do those jobs, but who can't because the jobs are being given to illegals for lower wages. Perfectly legal labor would do these jobs, but they cannot because illegals are ILLEGALLY taking those jobs for lower wages. And simply saying that we are going to legalize the current batch of illegal immigrant workers won't solve this problem. It will merely perpetuate the problem, because there will be MORE illegal immigrants, those illegal immigrants will continue to take jobs for lower wages, and the ones we legalize in this go-around will either be out of a job because they are demanding a higher wage (being legal, they can do that) that their employer doesn't want to pay... or else they will be stuck in jobs that continue to promote slave wages, and will be competing with the NEXT crop of illegal workers to come over the border. Either way, the problem perpetuates itself. Your "solution" doesn't actually solve anything. It just legalizes it... which just makes it harder for the government to solve the immigrant poverty issues later.


But by closing off the border, enforcing immigration law, holding employers accountable for illegal hires, and deporting illegals when we find them, we create a situation is which the problem CAN be solved, or at least mitigated to a great degree. If employers are held accountable, they won't hire illegals. If illegals aren't being hired, they have no reason to come here in the first place. If the borders become tougher to cross at the same time that we are holding employers accountable for illegal hires, the risk of coming here will no longer be worth the "reward" of getting here, and illegals will stop taking the risk. If we deport the ones who we do find here whenever we find them, we make the risk even greater, and the incentive to come here less. And if at the same time we get rid of the "anchor baby" exceptions, we take away the last incentive of illegals to come here.


In short, if we disincentivize coming to this country illegally, people will stop wanting to come here illegally. And if they don't want to come here, then the problem is pretty much solved, isn't it. Oh, sure, a few will come anyway, but not the millions upon millions that are here now. But if you grant immunity or amnesty to illegal aliens, you give them a greater incentive to come here, which just perpetuates the problem, drives wages down, and increases poverty and joblessness in the USA. Not to mention increases in crime.


Rewarding bad behavior NEVER stops that behavior. It never has and it never will. It doesn't work for welfare (paying people not to work and then wondering why they don't work), it doesn't work for education (social promotion doesn't teach kids to read or write), and it doesn't work for criminal behavior and illegal immigration (rewarding iillegal aliens for coming here illegally by giving them amnesty and de-facto citizenship rights).


Excon, you see illegal immigration as a "little" crime. You see marijuana use the same way... a little crime. And you feel we should ignore those little crimes.


Well, would you eat a piece of cake that was made with a "little" crap as one of the ingredients? Just a teeny-tiny bit. Not enough to actually harm you or anything. Just a drop. After all, it's just a "little" crap. It won't change the taste of the cake. If you can ignore a little crime, you should just as easily be able to ignore a little crap.


If you wouldn't eat such a piece of cake (and I wouldn't), then you need to re-think your position... because a "little" crime like illegal immigration or marijuana use is still a crime, just like a little tiny bit of crap in the cake is still crap. Illegal is illegal, whether it's a big crime or a small crime.

Sorry for getting so graphic. It was pretty disgusting, but I think I think that it needed to be said.


Elliot