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tomder55 · Sep 19, 2010, 02:19 PM

The parents weren't told their children would participate in Muslim prayers and prostate themselves.

I guess if you take prayer out of the class room and bring the class room to the mosque then that satisfies liberal sensitivities.

The students praying in no way can be called civics or social studies.

Wondergirl · Sep 19, 2010, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

The parents weren't told their children would participate in Muslim prayers and prostate themselves.

No, but they DID give permission to go to the mosque. You (or someone) said that hadn't happened. I'm guessing there had been no coordination with the mosque people about details, so it just flowed that the time for prayers arrived, and the students were politely invited to participate. The hosts wouldn't have thought anything of it, and were being good hosts.

I guess if you take prayer out of the class room and bring the class room to the mosque then that satisfies liberal sensitivities.

I hope the class goes to other houses of worship.

The students praying in no way can be called civics or social studies.

Read what I wrote above. And earlier I wrote, kids like to try things out. Had the mosque people rolled up a unicycle in front of the group and asked if anyone would like to try to ride it, I'm sure several students would have volunteered. If the mosque people would have offered a plateful of stuffed dates to the students and invited them to take a bite, I'm sure some of the students would have obliged. That's what young people do -- they try things out.

Students would have fallen off the unicycle and spit out the dates and later complained about praying on the hard floor and hurting their backs and knees, especially for five times a day.

tomder55 · Sep 19, 2010, 04:51 PM

No, but they DID give permission to go to the mosque. You (or someone) said that hadn't happened.

No I did not say that ;but I can now say with a high degree of confidence that the parents were deceived about the purpose of the trip.
The parents were led to believe that the purpose of the trip was to study the architecture of the mosque,and "to give the kids an authentic experience inside the mosque by observing Islamic religion first hand."
Field Trip Prayer Prompts Apology :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism

Wondergirl · Sep 19, 2010, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

No I did not say that

Someone yesterday was ranting about it. Musta been the guy whose name starts with "s".

I can now say with a high degree of confidence that the parents were deceived about the purpose of the trip.

That may not be true at all!

The parents were led to believe that the purpose of the trip was to study the architecture of the mosque,and "to give the kids an authentic experience inside the mosque by observing Islamic religion first hand."

You're a real color magician!

It definitely was an authentic experience! Like I said before (and you glossed over), the whole thing probably got out of hand with prayertime arriving and the gracious hosts inviting the students to experience the prayertime too. If an atheist had come to my father's church, I would have expected him/her to at least stand or sit quietly, bow his head, and even close his eyes in respect.

How many of these students have become Muslims now and have joined a terrorist cell?

excon · Sep 19, 2010, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Catsmine

C'mon Lefties, step up to the plate. (This is my best Excon impersonation, I'm not that good at it)

Hello Cats:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am NOT a mouthpiece for the left. Besides, educators and what they do isn't representative of ANY particular political persuasion, as far as I know. What? There aren't Republican teachers?? If they did GOOD, I'll bet you'd think they were conservative. But, since they did bad, well...

Now, I don't know what the LEFT thinks about the public schools involving themselves in ANY religion. I can't imagine them not knowing that the trip is a violation of the Constitution. Let's hope these educators DON'T teach civics..

I don't know WHY you think I'd support a school outing to a mosque when I wouldn't support a school outing to a church. Yes, contrary to some accusations, I AM consistent.

excon

Catsmine · Sep 19, 2010, 05:17 PM

Looks like my Excon impersonation worked.

Hi, Ex. You're right(make that correct), you are consistent. You support the first 9 Amendments every chance you get.

Yes, I imagine there are Republican teachers, although it seems a fairly recent phenomenon and has nothing to do with the OP.

tomder55 · Sep 19, 2010, 05:17 PM

Wondergirl I am not faulting the people at the mosque for proselytizing .That's their job. I fault the school and particularly the escorts for not stopping it as inappropriate.
Thankfully there was a suspicious parent with a video camera. One could just imagine the subtle and not so subtle pressure on the students to participate otherwise.

Wondergirl · Sep 19, 2010, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

Wondergirl I am not faulting the people at the mosque for proselytizing .That's their job. I fault the school and particularily the escorts for not stopping it as inappropriate.

How many students have switched religions?

tomder55 · Sep 19, 2010, 05:30 PM

WG your question is a non sequitur .If all or none of them convert the issue remains the same.The students should not have been put in a positition to accept or reject an offer to pray during a field trip ;or participate in any ritual that could be construed as religious.

Catsmine · Sep 19, 2010, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How many students have switched religions?

How many Hindus converted from seeing the Nativity Scene on the Courthouse lawn? Invalid question.

Wondergirl · Sep 19, 2010, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

The students should not have been put in a positition to accept or reject an offer to pray

I shouldn't have had to relearn the Pledge years ago when someone stuck in "under God."

Where else would the students learn how to accept or reject something offered by a religious leader?

tomder55 · Sep 19, 2010, 05:38 PM

It's the parents call. I went to Catholic instruction because my parents chose the send me there... not because a school field trip was arranged .

excon · Sep 19, 2010, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Where else would the students learn how to accept or reject something offered by a religious leader?

Hello Carol:

At home, or in church. Certainly NOT in school.

excon

Wondergirl · Sep 19, 2010, 05:40 PM

Why did I have to relearn the Pledge?

excon · Sep 19, 2010, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Why did I have to relearn the Pledge?

Hello again, Carol:

It's because some religious fanatic had some sway... It wouldn't happen now - but we're STUCK with it. It IS a LIE, isn't it?? One nation, under god... What a bunch of hooey. This is MY nation too, and it AIN'T under no god!

excon

Catsmine · Sep 19, 2010, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Where else would the students learn how to accept or reject something offered by a religious leader?

Same place they learn to reject or accept the teachings of their own/their parents' religious views. In their heart once they've figured out on their own how to think, since their teachers are no longer allowed to teach such things.

The entire point to the thread is that since schools are prohibited from touring Holy Cross, they should be equally prohibited from touring this terrorist-funded madrassa.

Wondergirl · Sep 19, 2010, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by excon

It's because some religious fanatic had some sway...

So glad that fanatic was a Christian, or a lotta people would be awful mad!

tomder55 · Sep 20, 2010, 02:26 AM

Gee ,why stop there ? Why not scrub any historical reference to God by the founders regardless of how pertinent they were to the founding of the nation and their beliefs that our freedoms come from God?

The pledge is not a prayer so to compare it to the mosque field trip is apples and oranges.

excon · Sep 20, 2010, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

Gee ,why stop there ? The pledge is not a prayer so to compare it to the mosque field trip is apples and oranges.

Hello again, tom:

No, but the principle is the same - GOVERNMENT involvement in religion. If you believe the government SHOULD promote god, then it shouldn't bother you too much they they want to promote Allah...

excon

tomder55 · Sep 20, 2010, 05:12 AM

The reference to God doesn't promote God

."[The pledge is] a secular activity - an individual statement of patriotism and respect for this country and its primary symbol."

http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/suprem...er.ami.cif.pdf
(amicus submitted in the Newdow law suit )

"A sense of proportion should also guide those who police the boundaries between church and state. Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation -- context matters. It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase 'under God.' I didn't."

Name that speaker...

Under your prescription any mention of God in our history and culture would be scrubbed from the curriculum regardless of it's content (the whole Enlightenment recognized a non-denominational God and an admiration and appreciation for that God's creation.You cannot properly study the Enlightement or it's influence on the founders without that basic fact)