[speechlesstx]

And that doesn't tell the whole story but hints at it, pedophiles seek out places they can be around children and many of those are volunteers; church nursery workers, bible class teachers, coaches, etc. No one works with kids in my church without first undergoing a background check, volunteer or staff.

[talaniman]

You should have had a "Pulling sh*t out of my a$$ warning."

Really Tal, enough of your BS assumptions. What part of "No, I'm not Catholic" did you fail to comprehend, and even if I were why in the hell would I defend pedophiles? I don't, I haven't and I won't, so before you EVER accuse me of "throwing the helpless born under the bus" you'd better be d@mn sure you have your facts straight.

Are you against Obama care?

Are you against a .05% tax on wages above $250,000 to build, repair, replace bridges schools, roads?

Are you for balancing the budget on the backs of the poor, and the ever growing working poor?

So you want a voucher for medicare? Not just for YOU,but your kids too!

If there is no money, and we are so broke, how the hell can Mitt find a few trillion for him and his buddies to keep even more of their loot??

I got my facts straight all right, without the Tea Party paranoid stances, or right wing excuses to do nothing but say NO!

Its YOUR government, OURS, and I just cast my early vote, and can feel empowered.

[speechlesstx]

Are you against Obama care?

Are you against a .05% tax on wages above $250,000 to build, repair, replace bridges schools, roads?

Are you for balancing the budget on the backs of the poor, and the ever growing working poor?

So you want a voucher for medicare? Not just for YOU,but your kids too!

If there is no money, and we are so broke, how the hell can Mitt find a few trillion for him and his buddies to keep even more of their loot??

I got my facts straight all right, without the Tea Party paranoid stances, or right wing excuses to do nothing but say NO!

Its YOUR government, OURS, and I just cast my early vote, and can feel empowered.

Irrelevant. I responded specifically to this charge:

The church can do better, and victimizing little boys for years isn't a small thing because if they are capable of rape,what else are they capable of. Harboring criminals is NOT integrity.

For a guy who is big on protecting the helpless unborn, you don't have a problem throwing the helpless born under the bus.

If World vision relieves your guilt, go for it. It doesn't relieve you of RESPONSIBILITY!

You declared me GUILTY of some nasty stuff and assuaging my GUILT by giving to World Vision. You're little diversion up there ain't going to fly.

[talaniman]

Then have some empathy by not taking safety net money and giving it to the guy who has millions and billions and trillions. The safety net is more important than ever NOW given the robbery perpetrated by the elite class, that's making all us ordinary types have a really hard time.

And no, I wouldn't be sending my wealth to a hiding place. I would be building a road and a bridge to the biggest teaching hospital with a children's wing in the world. Free transportation and cable TV!! Across the park from a school that covers K-12, and a free college, with a technical school. Loan me a trillion bucks will you?

[speechlesstx]

Then have some empathy by not taking safety net money and giving it to the guy who has millions and billions and trillions. The safety net is more important than ever NOW given the robbery perpetrated by the elite class, thats making all us ordinary types have a really hard time.

And no, I wouldn't be sending my wealth to a hiding place. I would be building a road and a bridge to the biggest teaching hospital with a children's wing in the world. Free transportation and cable TV!!! Across the park from a school that covers K-12, and a free college, with a technical school. Loan me a trillion bucks will ya?

Another diversion. This is the only point at hand here, you declared me GUILTY of some nasty stuff and of assuaging my GUILT by giving to World Vision. Back it up or take it back.

[excon]

Hello again,

It's summertime... Relax. Have a beer. It's time to draft our football team. For the time being, THIS thread is closed.

I LOVE having power...

excon

[excon]

Hello again,

Time out is over.. It's open. I LOVE power.

excon

[paraclete]

Obviously you have nothing better to do, get a life

[talaniman]

Thanks Ex, smart progressives like myself should be able to make a case without being personally insulting, or denigrating.

[TUT317]

Here you go:

Thanks for the full quote.

Yes, there are a couple of sentences left out before and after the limited quote you provided. Let's just say this oversight is rather significant.

"Whether property alone, and the whole of which each citizen possessed, shall be subject to contribution, or only its surplus after satisfying his first wants"

In other words, what particular part or parts of what the individual has amassed is subject to the distribution to the rest of society? Or shall it be only the surplus the individual produces is subject to this distribution process?

Jefferson says that this has yet to be decided. However, before we make such a decision we need consider a couple of important factors.

(a) Whatever we decide upon it should be just and fair to all.

(b) This position is covered in the selected quote you have provided and by itself supports a modern political position.

I am not saying this position is wrong, but what I am saying is that Jefferson is not advocating this position as a prescription for some type of modi operandi when it comes to such things as taxation.

Jefferson is asking us to balance things out.


The last part of the full quote provided also provided gives us an interesting insight into Jefferson's concerns when it comes to the wealthy being allowed to become too wealthy to the extent that they begin to pose a threat to government.

Clearly Jefferson is against extra taxation in this respect, but hopes to dilute the wealth and influence of such accumulations. Presumably redistribution upon death.

Overall the limited quote is taking his comments out of context.

Tut

[speechlesstx]

Hello again,

Time out is over.. It's open. I LOVE power.

excon

But you don't love others having power.

[excon]

But you don't love others having power.

Hello again, Steve:

Nahh... I HATE others ABUSING their power, like arresting non violent POT smokers and ruining their lives... Yeah.. I HATE those people and I'll NEVER stop.

That you yawn while that's happening to your fellow citizens doesn't speak well of you.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Nahh... I HATE others ABUSING their power, like arresting non violent POT smokers and ruining their lives... Yeah.. I HATE those people and I'll NEVER stop.

That you yawn while that's happening to your fellow citizens doesn't speak well of you.

excon

I HATE people ignoring what I've actually said in favor of repeating crap they've made up that does not reflect my views in an attempt to make me look bad. I just went through that with Tal before you closed the thread, so do you want to discuss reality or do you two just want to keep making sh*t up about me?

[excon]

I HATE people ignoring what I've actually said

Hello again, Steve:

Actually, I listen very carefully... That you sit back saying it would OK with you if they DIDN'T put pot smokers in jail, is a LONG way from actively SUPPORTING it. When did you join Norml? When did you post your outrage? When did you write a letter? When did you DO anything about it?

Nahhh... Sitting back IS yawning...

excon

[speechlesstx]

Thanks for the full quote.

Yes, there are a couple of sentences left out before and after the limited quote you provided. Let's just say this oversight is rather significant.

"Whether property alone, and the whole of which each citizen possessed, shall be subject to contribution, or only its surplus after satisfying his first wants"

In other words, what particular part or parts of what the individual has amassed is subject to the distribution to the rest of society? Or shall it be only the surplus the individual produces is subject to this distribution process?

Jefferson says that this has yet to be decided. However, before we make such a decision we need consider a couple of important factors.

(a) Whatever we decide upon it should be just and fair to all.

(b) This position is covered in the selected quote you have provided and by itself supports a modern political position.

There's nothing modern about it, it's the original position of the founders.

I am not saying this position is wrong, but what I am saying is that Jefferson is not advocating this position as a prescription for some type of modi operandi when it comes to such things as taxation.

Jefferson is asking us to balance things out.

No, he's asking it "to be equally and fairly applied to all" for the very reason I've argued for years and what I quoted, "To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.""

The last part of the full quote provided also provided gives us an interesting insight into Jefferson's concerns when it comes to the wealthy being allowed to become too wealthy to the extent that they begin to pose a threat to government.

Clearly Jefferson is against extra taxation in this respect, but hopes to dilute the wealth and influence of such accumulations. Presumably redistribution upon death.

He speaks only of inheritance, which would be kin. Nothing more.

Overall the limited quote is taking his comments out of context.

I disagree.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Actually, I listen very carefully... That you sit back saying it would OK with you if they DIDN'T put pot smokers in jail, is a LONG way from actively SUPPORTING it. When did you join Norml? When did you post your outrage? When did you write a letter? When did you DO anything about it??

Nahhh... Sitting back IS yawning...

excon

I've explained that before too. You have your causes, I have mine. You can't tell me you actively engage in a battle against every injustice. If you did I'd call you a liar, because for one our ideas of what's unjust don't match. You can have my support or reject it, your choice.

I'll even make a deal, when NORML joins my fight against killing babies I'll sign up.

[talaniman]

The intent of the founders was severely limited in scope and had no idea that things would expand and grow,or be complicated by the diversity we have seen as the nation grew from 13 colonies to 50 states. Their ideas, and intents while a guideline cannot begin to address the problems of a modern very complex society.

It would take them a while to get us Wall Street, or the global economy that have changed so much in the centuries following independence, as they had no civil or social revolutions that the modern era has brought. So lets not let original intent be the sole governance to solving problems that were unheard of back then.

Just as a gun is only a threat in the wrongs hands, so is a derivative. So is writing laws that favors WHO?? So since in the modern world females want birth control, and for some very good reasons so stated simply, why make it hard for them to have them?

If the goa lis saving babies from abortions, why is this not a reasonable alternative? Seems you want government out of YOUR life, but in everyone else especially the bedroom. That's almost sick.

I mean does your wife use the pill? Tell me what you DO approve of in your house to prevent unwanted pregnancy?

[tomder55]

The intent of the founders was severely limited in scope

I strongly disagree . The founders studied all the Enlightenment philosophers and studied the history of Republics and democracies as far back as the Greeks.

and had no idea that things would expand and grow,or be complicated by the diversity we have seen as the nation grew from 13 colonies to 50 states. Their ideas, and intents while a guideline cannot begin to address the problems of a modern very complex society.

Most of them had the expansion of the nation in their eyesight ;and Jefferson engineered the biggest territorial expansion in the nations territory. Further ,many of them were some of the most brilliant scientists of their time. Do I have to dig up all the inventions of Frankin ?Jefferson ;besides being a politician and statesman, was an established architect, and inventor. Hugh Williamson was a renown scientist and physician. No ;they saw the future well and created a blueprint for governance that is ageless.

[Wondergirl]

Most of them had the expansion of the nation in their eyesight ... they saw the future well

I want some of what you're smoking.

[speechlesstx]

The intent of the founders was severely limited in scope and had no idea that things would expand and grow,or be complicated by the diversity we have seen as the nation grew from 13 colonies to 50 states. Their ideas, and intents while a guideline cannot begin to address the problems of a modern very complex society

.

Horse hockey.

So since in the modern world females want birth control, and for some very good reasons so stated simply, why make it hard for them to have them?

There is no problem with access to contraceptives. We've had this dance before, the mandate is a cure in search of a disease. Why not solve some actual problems instead of pandering to your base?

If the goa lis saving babies from abortions, why is this not a reasonable alternative? Seems you want government out of YOUR life, but in everyone else especially the bedroom. That's almost sick.

Another fallacy, another assumption and another insult. Are we going to do this again or can smart progressives like yourself "make a case without being personally insulting, or denigrating."

I mean does your wife use the pill? Tell me what you DO approve of in your house to prevent unwanted pregnancy?

My wife had a radical hysterectomy after her second child, my (step) daughter who is battling AIDS. We can't have more children. Care to try and touch on any more sensitive areas of my life?