[N0help4u]

Your belief Purgatory we already covered that it is not scriptural because it cancels the meaning for Jesus death. So that doctrine does not line up with scripture.

You believe pray to Mary the scripture says there is only one intercessor.

Tom says back doctrine with scripture
You believe back scripture to doctrine
Which is the correct standard?

[N0help4u]

He said sole standard meaning back up what you believe with scripture
He did not say sola scriptura

Basically by insisting Tom is sola scriptura you are admitting that the Catholic doctrines are not solely based on scripture validation. You want to believe the Church has the power and authority to make traditions and doctrines separate from the Bible that is where you and Tom differ. Your interpreting his statement as proving he is scripture only is your perception.
Actually nobody can be sola scriptura because nobody has the one and only true interpretation.

[De Maria]

Right - except for the fact that sola scriptura does not mean "scripture alone"

It doesn't. But you have just defined it and it sounds very much like what Luther said.

Luther said, Sola Scriptura, Scripture is the sole rule of faith.
You said, Sola Scriptura, Scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.

What is the difference?

as defined by Roman Catholics.

That doctrine is not a Catholic Doctrine. It was defined by Luther and denounced by the Catholic Church. It is a false doctrine.

This is a strawman put up by the catholic church to oppose sola scriptura.

No. I believe this argument you are making here, that the Church defined Sola Scriptura is a straw man to make the uninformed believe that the Church has misrepresented Sola Scriptura. But the head to head comparison of what Luther said, and what you say, is right above. There is hardly any difference and neither of them are in Scripture.

So they both fail. Scripture, the rule of faith, does not mention Sola Scriptura as either sole standard of doctrine or sole rule of faith. And if there is a difference of meaning between those two statements, you are splitting hairs.

I have no problem with accepting other documents, writings etc, as long as they can be shown to be in alignment with scripture. Indeed, documents which go outside of scripture but do not contradict oppose or contradict Biblical doctrine can be accepted as speculation but not doctrinal.

You have contradicted yourself. Do you accept documents outside of Scripture which do not contradict Scripture as doctrinal or not? In one sentence you say you do, in the very next you say they are speculation. Which is it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

You have contradicted yourself. Do you accept documents outside of Scripture which do not contradict Scripture as doctrinal or not? In one sentence you say you do, in the very next you say they are speculation. Which is it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

I don't understand why you have a hard time comprehending backing doctrine with scripture.
You think Tom is contradicting himself when it is simply that you do not seem to be able to comprehend the differentiation and I haven't a clue how to make it any more simple

[De Maria]

He said sole standard meaning back up what you believe with scripture
He did not say sola scriptura

Lol!!

He said that Sola Scriptura means sole standard.

Read it again:

Originally Posted by Tj3
I told you previously - it is the belief that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine.

"It" in "it is the belief", refers to Sola Scriptura.

Basically by insisting Tom is sola scriptura you are admitting that the Catholic doctrines are not solely based on scripture validation.

Correct. They are based on the Word of God which is carried in Scripture AND Tradition.

2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Note that there are two forms of tradition we must keep. Epistle means Scripture. Word means oral. We, as Catholics, keep them both.

In addition, the Bible also says we must turn to the Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

We, as Catholics, do so. Scripture tells us to.

But Scripture nowhere says that we must "soley base our beliefs on Scripture validation".
Nowhere. Unless you can provide the verse.

You want to believe the Church has the power and authority to make traditions and doctrines separate from the Bible that is where you and Tom differ.

No. That is your misrepresentation of the Church. Sacred Tradition and Scripture are one Word of God. They are inseparable.

You and Tom want to separate the two. But that is not God's will. Again, review 2 Thess 2:14 above. We keep both Traditions. You have denied one of them.

Your interpreting his statement as proving he is scripture only is your perception.

He said so. Why don't you discuss that with him?

Actually nobody can be sola scriptura because nobody has the one and only true interpretation.

We are not Sola Scripturist and we do have the true interpretation of Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Sigh - have you been reading my posts?

Yes.

Answer me this - what did Jesus use to validate sound doctrine? Was Jesus wrong? Should He have submitted Himself to the teachings of the religious leaders?

As I have shown in a message to which you didn't respond. Jesus used His innate wisdom, parables based on Rabbiinic tradition and Rabbinic tradition and Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Lol!!!

He said that Sola Scriptura means sole standard.



De Maria

Just shows you do not get it!

If I say the sole standard for making a cake is to read recipes
That means I do not look up a cake recipe in the mechanics repair book
That does not mean that the cake IS made precisely according to the recipe I found in the recipe book.
But that I used the formula to make the cake. If motor oil is not in the recipe book I do not use motor oil.
Catholic Church uses motor oil in their recipe and then try to find a way to justify it even though it is not in
The recipe book.

[N0help4u]

Also why do you accept a religion that does not back up everything by the Bible?

[De Maria]

# Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Very good. And God sent Prophets to tell the Jewish People His message and established a Levitical Priesthood to explain His message. Therefore, the Jewish people did not rely on Scripture alone.

# In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

Again, God set up men like Moses and Aaron, Joshua and David to direct our paths and He provided priests, like Nathan, to direct their paths. In fact, for many years, the Scriptures were lost to the Jews, but they still had access to the Prophets and the Priests.

# "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Note first that this doesn't say that ONLY the Scriptures are inspired. And it can't because St. Peter tells us that Holy Men are also inspired.

Then note that the Scriptures are good for what? For doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. Therefore the Scriptures are never alone. They must be taught!!

Romans 10 14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?

# Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Note that one does not need to necessarily study Scripture. The tradition of preaching, of teaching of itinerant Rabbis, of which Jesus is a prime example, was going strong back then and it is still strong today.

# For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Yes, but the Word of God is not limited to a book. It is also alive and well in the Traditions of the Church.

Why God wants use to back doctrine with scripture rather than scripture to a doctrine

Remember that Scripture came from Tradition. Not the other way around. First men spoke then what they spoke was written.

Remember also that first Jesus spoke His doctrines, then the Church taught them and then the Church wrote them down in Scripture. And when they wrote them down they did not cease to teach.

Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits...

Good, let us see the fruits of the Protestant reformation:
1. Division - the slightest disagreement in doctrine inspires another denomination.
2. Divorce - What God has joined together let no man tear asunder.
3. Contraception - Few if any Protestant denominations denounce the evil of contraception.

2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.

We believe this has happened in Protestantism. It is they who multiply denominations simply because they disagree with doctrine.

Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, the architects of the Protestant reformation were all originally Catholic Priests.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, the Pillars of the Protestant Reformation, are traditions of men which contradict the Word of God.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Again, sadly, Luther, Calvin and Zwingli were Catholic priests.

2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

This is precisely a contradiction of the Protestant doctrine of the Perspicuity (easy to understand, self explanatory) nature of Scripture.

Here, Scripture Itself tells you that some things in Scripture are difficult to understand. That is why God provided a standard for us to which we have recourse, the Church.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Again, the traditions of men such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide have been used to cheat many. The medicine is the true doctrines taught by the Catholic Church throughout the millennia.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Fuirther proof of the necessity of the Church for the teaching of true doctrine.

Please note carefully that none of these mention "Scripture alone" at all. And none of these even imply Scripture alone. In fact, they confirm Scripture and Tradition by Church Teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Also why do you accept a religion that does not back up everything by the Bible?

I don't.

[N0help4u]

You want to confuse man made doctrines and traditions with the traditions taught by Jesus and the Rabbi's. Yes they did not use the Book because the book was about what THEY taught so don't you think that what the Catholic Church teaches should line up with what they taught?

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, the Pillars of the Protestant Reformation, are traditions of men which contradict the Word of God.

So you are saying that sola scriptura is NOT the Bible?
I am sorry I thought you have been saying that Tom goes only by the Bible.
What traditions of sola scriptura contradicts the Bible?

Why do you insist that the traditions of the Catholic church are right when they do not follow the Bible but you insist that Toms beliefs are tradition and not the Bible?

[De Maria]

Your belief Purgatory we already covered that it is not scriptural because it cancels the meaning for Jesus death. So that doctrine does not line up with scripture.

Yes, we discussed the doctrine. I believe we are still discussing it. I have so far gotten you to admit that we do make satisfaction for our sins. Having accepted that you should logically accept the doctrine of Purgatory.

You believe pray to Mary the scripture says there is only one intercessor.

The Scriptures also say that there is only one teacher. Yet you and everyone accept many teachers. So, the Scriptures really mean that there is a Primary Intercessor, whom we are called to imitate. Therefore, when someone says "pray for me", I don't turn around and say, "DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS ONLY ONE INTERCESSOR!!!" No, I pray for him.

And knowing that God is a God of the living we know that the souls in heaven are ready, willing and able to pray for us when asked.

Tom says back doctrine with scripture
You believe back scripture to doctrine
Which is the correct standard?

You still don't understand.

Tom says back doctrine with Scirpture ALONE.

I say what the Church teaches. Doctrine must be backed by Scripture AND Tradition.

Here's an example.

Many centuries ago, Arius and Athanasius got into an argument about doctrine. They both believed they were correct. They both used Scripture to back them up and they both claimed the Holy Spirit was on their side.

They took their argument to the Church. The Church compared Arius claim and Athanasius claim to what? To Scripture? Nooooo!!

They compared the claims of both to the Traditional Teachings of the Church Fathers from all antiquity. And they discovered that Arius was teaching a novelty. The Church had never interpreted Scripture they way Arisus taught. But the Church had always believed and taught what Athanasius taught.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Yes, we discussed the doctrine. I believe we are still discussing it. I have so far gotten you to admit that we do make satisfaction for our sins. Having accepted that you should logically accept the doctrine of Purgatory.

I did not say we make satisfaction for our sins after we die. I said the believers judgment our works are refined not our sins.

[De Maria]

You want to confuse man made doctrines and traditions with the traditions taught by Jesus and the Rabbi's. Yes they did not use the Book because the book was about what THEY taught so don't you think that what the Catholic Church teaches should line up with what they taught?

Thank you. What the Church teaches lines up with Jesus teachings exactly.

So you are saying that sola scriptura is NOT the Bible?

Correct.

I am sorry I thought you have been saying that Tom goes only by the Bible.

I am saying that Tom believes a tradition of men called Sola Scriptura wherein people are taught that they can interpret the Bible independently of the Church. They use the Bible as their sole standard of doctrine without consideration of what was taught by the Church for centuries before them.

What traditions of sola scriptura contradicts the Bible?

Sola Scriptura Itself.
Sola Fide.
Once Saved Always Saved.
The reduction of Mary's role in salvation.
The reduction in our role in our salvation.
The idea that one must sin for grace to abound.

And many more.

Why do you insist that the traditions of the Catholic church are right when they do not follow the Bible but you insist that Toms beliefs are tradition and not the Bible?

It is the other way around. The Catholic Church follows the Bible. Many of Tom's beliefs do not. Nor do many of yours.

Why do you keep referring back to Tom? I mean, its OK, but it seems strange. I'm used to debating with people who defend their own beliefs, not someone else's. Do you believe what he believes?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Yes, we discussed the doctrine. I believe we are still discussing it. I have so far gotten you to admit that we do make satisfaction for our sins. Having accepted that you should logically accept the doctrine of Purgatory.

I did not say we make satisfaction for our sins after we die. I said the believers judgment our works are refined not our sins.

And I asked what our works represent and where are they because we don't take anything with us?

Have you answered that question(s)? If you have, I missed it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Works are like if you do things to please God and try to work your way to salvation rather than being lead by God. Like if you knock yourself out for to do favors for God but that wasn't where God wanted you or what he wanted you to be doing then your works are straw they get destroyed and they do not receive a crown. If you were lead by the Holy Spirit then your works receive one of the crowns.

Remember with Cain and Abel God accepted ones sacrifice and not the others

Mat 7:21 -23 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 corinth 3:11-16
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw
The work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

# The Crown of Life.This crown rewards the believer's faithfulness during trials. The Lord will reward those who accept trials with joy (James 1:2-3, 12). If we will love and trust God during times of adversity, our moral strength and stamina will only increase and make our character pleasing to God. Regardless of how bad things may appear, God wants us to trust in Him.

# The Crown of Righteousness. This crown is for those who long to see Him face to face, and ponder it daily (2 Tim. 4:7-8). Jesus talked about this longing in the parable of the master who went on a long journey (Matt. 24:44-51). Servants who eagerly and actively await their master's appearing are those who love their master and obey His instructions even during His absence.

# The Crown of Glory. This crown awaits those, who out of right motives, shepherd God's people (I Peter 5: 2-4). Shepherds are not merely to tell the sheep how to live, but to demonstrate by their own lives how to live. Jesus provided the example of the perfect shepherd, and He also provides the strength to follow His example. God will reward those who serve others eagerly and see their labor as a privilege. This crown is reserved for those who have the same heart Jesus has toward His sheep, described in John 10:11: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

# The Crown of Rejoicing. This is the soul winner's crown (I Thess. 2:19-20). It is not hard to understand God's eagerness to reward those who bring the lost to Him. But we are not always geared toward evangelism and we let negative thinking hinder our reaching out. We must realize that a relationship with God is exactly what unbelievers are searching for, whether they realize it or not, and reaching out to them causes God to rejoice.

[De Maria]

Works are like if you do things to please God and try to work your way to salvation rather than being lead by God. Like if you knock yourself out for to do favors for God but that wasn't where God wanted you or what he wanted you to be doing then your works are straw they get destroyed and they do not receive a crown. If you were lead by the Holy Spirit then your works receive one of the crowns.

Remember with Cain and Abel God accepted ones sacrifice and not the others

Mat 7:21 -23 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 corinth 3:11-16
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

# The Crown of Life.This crown rewards the believer's faithfulness during trials. The Lord will reward those who accept trials with joy (James 1:2-3, 12). If we will love and trust God during times of adversity, our moral strength and stamina will only increase and make our character pleasing to God. Regardless of how bad things may appear, God wants us to trust in Him.

# The Crown of Righteousness. This crown is for those who long to see Him face to face, and ponder it daily (2 Tim. 4:7-8). Jesus talked about this longing in the parable of the master who went on a long journey (Matt. 24:44-51). Servants who eagerly and actively await their master's appearing are those who love their master and obey His instructions even during His absence.

# The Crown of Glory. This crown awaits those, who out of right motives, shepherd God's people (I Peter 5: 2-4). Shepherds are not merely to tell the sheep how to live, but to demonstrate by their own lives how to live. Jesus provided the example of the perfect shepherd, and He also provides the strength to follow His example. God will reward those who serve others eagerly and see their labor as a privilege. This crown is reserved for those who have the same heart Jesus has toward His sheep, described in John 10:11: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

# The Crown of Rejoicing. This is the soul winner's crown (I Thess. 2:19-20). It is not hard to understand God's eagerness to reward those who bring the lost to Him. But we are not always geared toward evangelism and we let negative thinking hinder our reaching out. We must realize that a relationship with God is exactly what unbelievers are searching for, whether they realize it or not, and reaching out to them causes God to rejoice.

I can't say that I disagree with any of that.

What are works of iniquity?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

I can't say that I disagree with any of that.

What are works of iniquity?

Sincerely,

De Maria

DEATH IF they were not covered under Jesus' blood.
------------------

The idea that one must sin for grace to abound.
I don't see Tom believing that.
Where does he say that?

[N0help4u]

You never did answer my question is purgatory before or after the judgment?
And is the duration different lengths according to your sins?

[Tj3]

Yes.

Good. Then you know that I have presented some of the scriptural basis for sola scriptura.

I am still waiting for you to validate your belief in tradition. Keep in mind that the onus is on you as I stated once before, and here is why:

- We all agree that the 66 books accepted and identified by the early church are canonical.
- Your denomination and you accept additional books and tradition as canonical.
- Scripture says:

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

The onus is therefore is on those who wish to add to the books accepted by all Christians as canonical to validate that the additional source(s) are the word of God.

As I have shown in a message to which you didn't respond. Jesus used His innate wisdom, parables based on Rabbiinic tradition and Rabbinic tradition and Scripture.

I note that you did not respond to my question. My questions was with respect to what Jesus used to validate sound doctrine.

Now, as to the source of the parables, if you are saying that Jesus relied on Rabbinic tradition, then you would be denying His divinity. The reason is that Rabbinic tradition is documented in the Talmud, and came from the Rabbis themselves, who often added to the law given in scripture, which is what Jesus referred to when He said:

Matt 15:2-4
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
NKJV