[eawoodall]

No.

Modern literature has proven exactly when and where, and who wrote the bible.

You need to take more college classes. Atheists admit this. Why are you so backward?

First of all there were well more than 40 writers. We can't forget all the writers that added their own flavor to the rewrites and translations.

Also the Bible is hardly without contradictions.

If the Bible is without contradiction I ask one of the believers to tell me how Judas died??
Who killed Saul??
How many children did Michal the daughter of Saul have??
Who was Josiah's successor??
Does God ever tempt his children??
Has any man seen God??

[eawoodall]

Wrong. Jesus said when speaking of the rich man and lazarus of those in torment and those in abrahams bosum, and torment sounds like hell, so reread, and learn. Jesus did talk about hell

Yeh my bad. I should have used a word like remarkable, extaordinary, outstanding. :o

And Talaniman I guess you do not know that not all christians believe the same things. Only TRUE Christians follow and imitate Jesus example as set out in the bible. This is what sets them apart from the others, as there is no mention in the bible of a literal hell, pergatory, all going to heaven, but they remain separate from the 'world' by staying neutral toward politics and war and preaching diligently to all nations.

[talaniman]

Only TRUE Christians follow and imitate Jesus example as set out in the bible

Where would you find a true christian? How can you tell a false one?

[eawoodall]

Not really.

No actually, not.

I don't recall any aspostles living to 300-400 ad, but the councils could only accept what they had. And modern college professors prove that only people trained in colleges and schools before 68ad could have written the bible, indeed rome outlawed certain education.
And it was not rediscovered until about 1880, these classic works, that are quoted in the bible, indeed college professors thought that the works were never quoted from 100 ad to the mid 1880s, but they were wrong, and proved so. And now they teach the truth about it

Things were handled during these concils by way of vote, yes even the divinity of christ was an issue voted on. I wouldn't feel very good about something like that.

Actually we have found out about many changes because of the dead sea scrolls. I can't remember off hand what book it was, but I think it was Mark that had a chapter added, and we learned this because of an earlier copy found in the dead sea scrolls. Thats just one example I don't have time to look through my notes to find more.

By the time these votes started there were no known Apostles. It was 300 to 400 years later. What was known was there was a lot of different beliefs from his birth to his divinity, life, teachings, ect, ect. Now being that it was the Romans taking care of this, they decided to take the stories that felt more like what they were used to, spruce them up a bit by making them sound more like their own beliefs,( which if you read anything about the Romans they come from a long history in believing in Demi Gods and what not) Presto change-o, you have a new religion to make everyone happy. I don't think a Jew had any part of what we read today as the NT. Why would they write about demi Gods when all of the Jewish writings that ended up as the OT did nothing but speak against this kind of thing?? Why would a Jewish writer declare his own people Killed God?? See what I'm saying here?? The Romans believed in many Gods and demi gods, so doesn't it make more sense that they created this one as well??

[eawoodall]

I apologize that people are mad at my answers. I do not want to tik you all off. But...

the question was: 'how can we prove the bible is true?'
my answer was "it already is proven".

some of you say you are offended at my words. Good.
the bible says only those offended can become believers.
only if you are shocked and outraged can see that maybe God is right.
only by becoming engaged in the discussion do you care enough.

only God can choose to draw someone to salvation. That christ is a scandalon or stumbling
block, only those who stumble can be saved. So only those who are offended that God says that God is the way,truth, and life. The only way to salvation, the only determiner of what is true, and the only life. We say we have a sex life, or a work life, but God says no there are not lifes, just part of existence. God wants us to be fruitful and multiply, so obviously wants us to marry and have kids. And studies show married people have more sex that single ones on average. So God does want us in marriage to have more sex for the purpose of having kids. And God wants us to work. Jesus said the job of man is to thank God. And certainly God wants to be thanked, but do not flatter.

prophecy - the foretelling of future events.
if the bible forecasts future events, and you see those events perhaps that proves its true?
of course many events were future when the bible was written, so perhaps you see already?
israel would return to their land, a nice prophecy, oh wait no one believed they would, after all that time, for them to come back together as a nation? Really? And just like the bible said they would. Amazing.

six step attitudinal change plan
Step 1. Some practice so offensive that it can scarcely be discussed in public is advocated by a RESPECTED expert in a RESPECTED forum.
Step 2. At first, the public is shocked, then outraged.
Step 3. But, the VERY FACT that such a thing could be publicly debated becomes the SUBJECT of the debate.
Step 4. In the process, sheer repetition of the shocking subject under discussion gradually
dulling its effect.
Step 5. People then are no longer shocked by the subject.
Step 6. No longer outraged, people begin to argue for positions to moderate the extreme; or, they accept the premise, challenging, instead, the means to ACHIEVE it.

how can we prove the bible is true? Sounds like you doubt it is true? But instead I state it is
already proven as true. And since a lot of people don't believe me, it becomes the focus of shock and offensive practice or statement, and as we move along the steps, more and more people believe me, and more and more they move toward my belief. You see saints know the bible is true and those who are not saints think it is not true already, so you waste effort if you are trying to do the steps, if you are genuine in your question then I believe I have stated a case that is reasonable, and any casual observer would believe me. But if not continue along the steps, and they will believe me. The steps can be turned on those who think they only work to make people believe less about the bible.

romans 1 - that people who choose to forget God exists become morons. That things are
spiritually discerned, so some will stay blind, and deaf. That there exist people who are not
going to understand no matter what is shown to them that the bible is true. Not everyone learns.

bible code - torah is exactly right down the letter choice in each word.
(see prophecy above.) if torah is correct down to the letter choice that proves it is right.

scientific method - if you make a hypothesis, and do an experiment, and its results are
repeatable then it is proven. Courts have maintained and the supreme court has not invalidated claims in courts that the bible is perfect, infallible, and otherwise beyond reproach. But allows other theories to be taught such as evoloution, if you overturn such cases then evolution cannot legally be taught, because it was only part of such cases.
quantum algebra, perfect mind, computer models of ancient astronomy correlations, anthropology, literature, history, et cetera all prove that no evidence exists to disprove the bible.

saint - those who are called of God are called saints. The term christian is a dirty word that
is on the same level as the n word, or caucasian. The n word comes from people who lived near the niger river in africa. Caucasian is for people who were from the caucus mountains.
christian means: christ-like. A christ like being is trying to act like christ through their
own effort, a saint is made perfect by God not the effort of the undeserving being that's is why it is called grace or unmerited favor.

gravity -we know from einsteins work that gravity effects of 'time' and decay of nuclear
material depend on how far from a gravity well it is. So 10^17 times as much matter, squared equals 10^34 times as much effect, and then the dark matter theory means approximately 10^72 times as much 'time' or decay of radioactive material at the creation point to the present as happens at this space/time point. So the billions of years that could occur in radioactive decay time, could actually be nothing more than thousands of years from the point of view of here. Time or radioactive decay occurs at different amounts depending on how close you are to more intense gravity. All matter was at point of creation or big bang, so a lot more matter there then, than is here now. My numbers are only rough approximations.

sorry you have lost another debate. But perhaps you can try harder. Or let me continue down the steps convincing more and more people. Either way I win. To argue won't make anyone right, it just helps bring more and more people to my way of thinking. Of course you can think you won. I don't mind you thinking that you won the debate or explained yourself or point of view better. It is history that will decide who presented a more valid or interesting point of view.

but that is the fun of such places as askmehelpdesk.com that we can reason together over what is ultimately valid and useful. What is true, and what is obviously false. So continue.
may you be as well, and may your questions help others, because there do exist some who do not ask questions, but want to know the same things as you, or I. be well, I hope that helps.

[Handyman2007]

[QUOTE=eawoodall]I apologize that people are mad at my answers. I do not want to tik you all off. But...


"some of you say you are offended at my words. good.
the bible says only those offended can become believers.
only if you are shocked and outraged can see that maybe God is right.
only by becoming engaged in the discussion do you care enough."



I will repeat what I said in response to this post earlier:
Intimidation and control by repitition and instilling fear.
If you tell a child that the sky is green long enough and often enough, they will actually believe that it is green no matter what pfoof there is to the truth that it is blue.

People control = POWER!

[NeedKarma]

Sorry ea, your post is disjointed and all over the place. It certainly does not offer the solid scientific evidence that the bible is true that you promised.

And you lost me at

studies show married people have more sex that single ones on average

LOL! You obvioulsy are not married and have had very little sex as a single person. :)

[De Maria]

All I tried to do is show that Oxman's topic "How can we prove the Bible is factual" makes no sense,

It certainly does make a great deal of sense.

Many people want to know whether they can have faith in the information presented in the Bible. With that in mind, it is easier to have faith in something which is proven factual than in something which is not.

For instance, do you believe that fairies exist? I don't because I have never come across any credible testimony. Any stories I have ever read on the subject have been labeled fiction.

However, I do believe that George Washington lived because his life is testified by multiple eyewitnesses. Therefore I consider that George Washington's life is factual.

By the same token, the informatiion in the Bible has been proven factual as to geography, political information, architecture and culture. Within the Bible, the life of Jesus Christ was testified by multiple witnesses with consistent descriptions of his life and deeds.

So, I have faith in the information presented in the Bible because it has been proven factual to my satisfaction.

as there is no way anyone can prove the Bible is factual, simply because the entire Bible and the religion based on the Bible is based on BELIEF and nothing else.
:rolleyes:

Apparently you've never read the Bible. The history in the Bible, the architecture of the region and many more facts can be independently proven. Most of the information presented in the Bible is factual.

However the Bible does include many forms of literary genre and some of that information is meant to convey a spiritual message using metaphors and parables.

So, you are wrong. The Bible is factual and the religion which is based on the Bible is a religion based on fact. That is why we can have faith in the information. Because it is true.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[NeedKarma]

The history in the Bible, the architecture of the region and many more facts can be independently proven. Most of the information presented in the Bible is factual.

The Bourne Supremacy is a great book with lots of facts and correct architectures of regions. It is a factual story by your reasoning.

[De Maria]

The Bourne Supremacy is a great book with lots of facts and correct architectures of regions. It is a factual story by your reasoning.

Are you saying that you have faith that Jason Bourne exists?

As I understand it, Jason Bourne is a fictional character in a work of fiction by Robert Ludlum. It is a work of fiction which is weaved into real world politics. But it is a work of fiction.

There are many fictional stories which mix fact and fiction to different degrees. In fact, I don't know any fictional story which doesn't mix fact and fiction to one degree or another. Even stories of fairies acknowledge the existence of towns, temples, statues, trees and grass and other facts of history, architecture, biology and geography.

In the case of historical books, they are intended as presentations of facts which can be verified by other independent observers. I have faith in those works of history which can be verified by independent observations and records.

In the case of the Bible, there are various genres represented. But those which are historical can be verified by independent records and by more than one testimony. And those genres which are fictional contain verifiable cultural and historical facts and communicate observable moral truths. And I have faith in the Bible because it can be thus verified in many aspects.

In the case of Jesus Christ, we have the most intimate historical biography testified by four independent eyewitnesses of any historical biography in the history of mankind. There is more evidence for his existence than for any other contemporaneous historical figure. The Gospels are also the most studied, the most tested, the most inspected texts in the history of mankind. They have passed every test with flying colors and therefore I have faith that Jesus Christ existed and exists and that He is the person represented in the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[talaniman]

Its as factual as any cultural history book that tells the story of the people that wrote it. That would include cave drawings also.

[buzzman]

Something to think about... Evolution(Darwin) vs Creation(Bible). Notwithstanding Christianity, I think it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than it does to believe Creation. At least Creation has a book to back up its beliefs. Another tidbit... do you realize that we've all been taught in school systems that Evolution is FACTUAL, when its still a "THEORY"? What is with that? If that isn't deception... what is?!

[talaniman]

Hmmm, almost like Columbus discovered America.

[KalFour]

You cannot scientifically PROVE the Bible is factual. You cannot scientifically prove anything. The point of science is to DISprove, and make educated guesses based on what possibilities have been ruled out and what fits with measurable and recordable information.
Regardless of how many prophecies and "facts" can be found in the Bible, scientifically, these can still be regarded as circumstantial.
The Bible cannot be proved to be true. And isn't the whole point of faith that the proof is found in your heart? You cannot share that with anyone, so why try to prove it? Say what you believe to be true, and don't be too downhearted if you fail. People can believe what they like, you shouldn't feel personally responsible for their immortal souls.
In the words of Douglas Adams, God said "Proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." Sure, Douglas Adams was very cynical about religion, but from the point of view of either a Christian or an atheist, that line has merit. No one should try to prove the existence of God, and so far, no one has managed to rule out the possibility of His existence. So why try?

Kal

[Onan]

There is so much I would love to add to this right now, but I don't know where to begin.

Eawoodall,

prophecy - the foretelling of future events.
If the bible forecasts future events, and you see those events perhaps that proves its true?
Of course many events were future when the bible was written, so perhaps you see already?
Israel would return to their land, a nice prophecy, oh wait no one believed they would, after all that time, for them to come back together as a nation? Really? And just like the bible said they would. Amazing.

The predictions in the Bible are hit and miss just like any other person predicting things. Some that have come true(as someone else mentioned was wars nation against nation) would be the same as if I were to predict rain in spring. Wars between nations were a common thing and not something that started in 1914 as this person suggested. The Middle East has been at war forever. It is not some great prediction that no one ever thought would come true. Same with Israel, after thousands of years it was bound to come true. Hell, I predict the Arizona Cardinals will some day win a superbowl, now when that happens in a hundred years will I be looked at as some great prophet guided by divine inspiration? Of course not. I would also like to point out that there are still Jews scattered all over the world, so in order for that prediction to be fully settled they would ALL have to return.

I don't recall any aspostles living to 300-400 ad, but the councils could only accept what they had. And modern college professors prove that only people trained in colleges and schools before 68ad could have written the bible, indeed rome outlawed certain education.

This is so far off. It's common knowledge with most scholars that there were tons of mistranslations and forgeries over the years concerning the Bible. Heck even the catholic Encyclopedia admits this. I don't know where you have received your information but I hope you didn't pay for it.

De Maria,,

In the case of Jesus Christ, we have the most intimate historical biography testified by four independent eyewitnesses of any historical biography in the history of mankind.

First of all, no one really knows who wrote the gosples so we don't know for sure they were written by eyewitnesses, and second there are well over 80 other gosples written that tells other stories from supposed eyewitnesses.

There is more evidence for his existence than for any other contemporaneous historical figure.

Are you kidding me? We have dug up Egyptian kings that at one time were thought of as just legend, but we have found no proof at all of a demi God who has once walked the earth. Hell there is more written about Zeus than there is of Jesus, does that make it proof that Zeus was a real being? Exactly what is this evidence? Where is this evidence?

They have passed every test with flying colors and therefore I have faith that Jesus Christ existed and exists and that He is the person represented in the Bible.

Again this is false. An example of not passing every test.

The NT claims that at the time Jesus was born,

Herod was king of Judea (Luke 1:5)
Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2) and
Caesar Augustus ruled Rome (Luke 2:1)

Well,, there was never a time when these three spans overlapped. This is what is learned with history and what would be known by eawoodall if he really knew history as he claims to.

Something else that should be pointed out here is the decree of herod to have all males under 2 or at birth to be killed is a work of fiction as well. No where outside the NT is this story mentioned. Even Josephus Flavius, a renowned Jewish historian, who chronicled events during that very period in history, makes no mention of any such decree by Herod, much less any actual killings.

History records that Herod was hated during his reign, and many far less evil acts that Herod committed were carefully recorded in several historical sources. An act this evil and of this magnitude would never have been left out of any account in which Herod was involved.

If that wasn't convincing enough, According to Luke Herod was dead before Jesus was even born.

So during these "tests" how was this overlooked??

[KalFour]

I agree with Onan. Personal beliefs aside, the Bible proves nothing. God being a widespread belief counts for no more than belief in dragons appearing in almost every culture. Does it prove that dragons exist?

More to the point, should it have to?

The Bible was written by men. Men make mistakes (even when directed by God, I'm sure). And the Bible has also been translated into several languages before English. If you believe, go on believing. But don't expect other people to share your faith based on an unreliable source.

[Onan]

At least Creation has a book to back up its beliefs.

There are plenty of books on evolution.

do you realize that we've all been taught in school systems that Evolution is FACTUAL, when its still a "THEORY"? What is with that? If that isn't deception... what is?!

The deception comes from the people going around still calling evolution a theory.

A little piece from the WIK

Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution

Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jillianleab]

Something to think about......Evolution(Darwin) vs Creation(Bible). Notwithstanding Christianity, I think it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than it does to believe Creation. At least Creation has a book to back up its beliefs. Another tidbit.....do you realize that we've all been taught in school systems that Evolution is FACTUAL, when its still a "THEORY"? What is with that? If that isn't deception...what is?!!

Would any other evolutionists like to join me in writing a book about evolution so we can have a book like the creationists and have something to "back up" our beliefs? I mean, hell, if that's all it takes...

Oh wait! There are already a bunch of books about evolution! Huh. Guess this argument is a bit worthless...

And buzzman please learn the difference between "theory", "hypothesis" and "law" (when used in science) before you go getting all in a tizzy about some supposed "deception". Here's a tidbit for you - the definitons you think are right, aren't.

[buzzman]

i see you choose to remain in ignorance.

did you do even a google search to find these proofs?

do you want to know the truth?

no, it is obvious you are just wrong, you choose to be wrong.
you cannot be right until you are willing to see that there is evidence.
until you will examine the proof, you are only hatemongering.

I agree... People will see what they want to see. That is why you must NOT engage in useless arguments. Use your time on people that are open to the truth, not people that want to hear what "They're itching ears want to hear". You know aas well as I do, there is no excuses in the end. Every man (We are not exclusive to any of this ruling either) has a choice to reject or accept the truth. It is human nature to seek those that agree with you in order to justify incorrect choices they full well know in their hearts to be true. It is only a temporary satisfaction, because it will never offer the true peace they are looking for.

[buzzman]

Would any other evolutionists like to join me in writing a book about evolution so we can have a book like the creationists and have something to "back up" our beliefs? I mean, hell, if that's all it takes.....

Oh wait! There are already a bunch of books about evolution! Huh. Guess this argument is a bit worthless...

And buzzman please learn the difference between "theory", "hypothesis" and "law" (when used in science) before you go getting all in a tizzy about some supposed "deception". Here's a tidbit for you - the definitons you think are right, aren't.

So you are saying that you believe in a Big Bang that apparently happened billions of years ago and allowed everything to perfectly fall in place in complete harmony. Good and Evil exist by its own accord and when you die it is then nothingness? I'm not asking you to even believe creation! I'm asking you to open your eyes to something that is even more unbelievable than Evolution!