[Wondergirl]

Oh Boy, here we go Again!!! WG, you have brought up (numerous times), in the past. Past Posts. About How we could not trust the Bible as being authentically God's word being that man has dabbled in it.

If you're not going to accept what you have been saying all along, there is no reason why anybody should listen to you. Don't you agree?

You misunderstood what I wrote and came to a faulty conclusion. I have never said "we could not trust the Bible as being authentically God's word being that man has dabbled in it."

[waltero]

Oh Boy, here we go Again!!! WG, you have brought up (numerous times), in the past. Past Posts. About How we could not trust the Bible being God's word being that man has dabbled with it. And all we have is man's dibble-dabbling manuscripts of God's Word. I can accept that. Let's go with that, you are 100% right. If God wanted man to dibble dabble with his manuscripts, then that is what we have. There we have it, the Holy Bible as God has presented it to us. The living Word!

If you're not going to accept what you have been saying all along, there is no reason why anybody should listen to you. Don't you agree?

(and No!. I'm not going to look up posts that I (and you) know exist.

Who has the True Bible?

Take a wild Guess. Apparently not you.

[jlisenbe]

Bible Saves? Should I go into - in the beginning the Word was...and the Word became flesh and so on and so on?

or; “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

The second scripture above doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with the topic, and I don't see why you think it is a reference to OT Jews. It is a reference to a future day of judgment, still yet to come.

As to Jesus being the Word, it is not referring to Jesus being the Bible. Surely you must realize that when Jesus walked the earth, he wasn't a King James Bible.

I just don't have a solid opinion on the idea of Jesus being capable of sinning. He was certainly capable of being tempted, but could he have chosen to sin? I don't see how, but I've never really studied it.

[waltero]

I have never said

Just stop.

[jlisenbe]

I have never said "we could not trust the Bible as being authentically God's word being that man has dabbled in it."

I think WG has an affection for the Bible, but only the parts that agree with her views. So, for instance, when Jesus in Matthew 25 teaches of a horrible day of judgment coming, she simply chooses to ignore it, claim "cherry-picking", or use some other excuse to get around it. Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin? Find an obscure, practically unknown author who has a hair-brained theory to work around it. And on and on it goes.

Following the teachings of the Bible is like taking your medicine. Much of it is cherry-flavored and nice to the taste, but some doesn't taste so good. Still, it is all a blessing and necessary for us to follow.

[waltero]

The second scripture above doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with the topic

Jesus saves(right). You know the Jesus that saves, I know the Jesus that saves, WG knows the Jesus that walked the earth. So what of the People of the OT that are saved? Did they know Jesus?

Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

Clearly these righteous sinners didn't know the God-man Jesus.

As to Jesus being the Word, it is not referring to Jesus being the Bible.

We can see Jesus all throughout the Old Testament. What Word do you think he's talking about? Gods Word? Do you mean the living Bible? If God's Word lives in you...
The Bible has power and authority. Yes, God's Word includes the Bible. The Bible is God's Word, the living Word. That's why its truths are our foundation. we must believe that he is the living Rock that provides a spring full of water.

You know those Rocks that Cried out Hosanna? Well, that would be the Bible crying out. You know The men of God in the Old Testament, the Bible talking.

[Wondergirl]

I think WG has an affection for the Bible, but only the parts that agree with her views. So, for instance, when Jesus in Matthew 25 teaches of a horrible day of judgment coming, she simply chooses to ignore it, claim "cherry-picking", or use some other excuse to get around it. Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin? Find an obscure, practically unknown author who has a hair-brained theory to work around it. And on and on it goes.

Following the teachings of the Bible is like taking your medicine. Much of it is cherry-flavored and nice to the taste, but some doesn't taste so good. Still, it is all a blessing and necessary for us to follow.

Damning WG is a sin. Be careful. Yes, Bible teachings are a blessing, such as love one another and thou shalt not bear false witness against a member of AskMeHelpDesk.

[waltero]

Find an obscure, practically unknown author who has a hair-brained theory to work around it. And on and on it goes.

Posted earlier: Some people just don't mind as long as it can just be Jesus in his Humanity,

In fact, there are people who use Jesus in his Humanity to argue for their sins. Just be reminded of the fact that the greatest tool or one of the greatest tools of deception that the enemy has is the fact that it has been easy to make people appreciate Jesus in his Humanity.

Yes, God took on flesh and was born a man. He did not take on the Nature of Man. Don't believe in Adams's humanity.

[jlisenbe]

Jesus saves(right). You know the Jesus that saves, I know the Jesus that saves, WG knows the Jesus that walked the earth. So what of the People of the OT that are saved? Did they know Jesus?

Great question. We had a long discussion of that probably a year or two ago. In my view, they were saved by faith in the coming Savior. Abraham is a great example who Paul used in both Romans and Galatians.

Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? Clearly these righteous sinners didn't know the God-man Jesus.

Why do you say that?

Damning WG is a sin. Be careful. Yes, Bible teachings are a blessing, such as love one another and thou shalt not bear false witness against a member of AskMeHelpDesk.

Oh please stop. No one is "damning" you. I am pointing out what is true and can easily verify it. There is no bearing of a false witness going on.

[Wondergirl]

Great question. We had a long discussion of that probably a year or two ago. In my view, they were saved by faith in the coming Savior. Abraham is a great example who Paul used in both Romans and Galatians.

In the Old Testament salvation was by grace through faith, the same as today. They looked forward to the coming Messiah; we look back to the cross. The gospel was taught, preached, and proclaimed in the Old Testament just as it is in the New Testament.

[waltero]

Why do you say that?

Why Would those who know Jesus not know what they were doing when they knew they were doing it for Jesus all along?
It's not like we (Christians) are going to be confronted by Jesus, having him say what he says, and not know what he is talking about. Jesus just said it to us (he's saying it to us as we read in the Bible). So we know now that whenever, whatever we give to somebody, we are giving to Jesus...So who is it that would be saying "When did we feed you etc. etc.?

Do you see where this is going?

[jlisenbe]

Why Would those who know Jesus not know what they were doing when they knew they were doing it for Jesus all along?
It's not like we (Christians) are going to be confronted by Jesus, having him say what he says, and not know what he is talking about. Jesus just said it to us (he's saying it to us as we read in the Bible).

Maybe. And then it's possible that many Christians know that to be true, but just don't put it altogether on that day. So perhaps your idea is right, but I wouldn't get dogmatic about it.

Do you see where this is going?

Not really, but I'm listening.

In the Old Testament salvation was by grace through faith, the same as today. They looked forward to the coming Messiah; we look back to the cross. The gospel was taught, preached, and proclaimed in the Old Testament just as it is in the New Testament.

Not sure I agree with that, but don't entirely disagree with it either. I think it's the part about the Gospel being, "taught, preached, and proclaimed in the Old Testament," that I will have to really ponder some.

[waltero]

Don't you understand? He was not born of ordinary generation. He's the God-man who was born of a virgin. Who therefore did not inherit Adam's sin. And it is only because of that, because he didn't inherit Adam's sin, he could atone for ours, which is exactly what he did. He reconciled Us in his body of Flesh by his death in order to present us holy blameless and above reproach, in him in Christ.

Do you remember when Jesus said if you simply think in your head, about lust, that it is a Sin?
The Sin starts once you think about it. Then it grows into full fruition and you have given yourself over to sin. On this Basis, I say it was impossible for the God-Man to sin. Because in order to sin you first have to think about it and If you think Jesus thought about sin the way that you and I think about sin, then you are gravely mistaken.

(Still don't understand?)
Why did God need to create a creator?
Being God why didn't he just create??

[Wondergirl]

Not sure I agree with that, but don't entirely disagree with it either. I think it's the part about the Gospel being, "taught, preached, and proclaimed in the Old Testament," that I will have to really ponder some.

From Wikipedia (of all places!) --

Christian theology describes the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ not as a new concept, but one that has been foretold throughout the Hebrew scripture (known as the Old Testament in Christian Bibles) and was prophetically preached even at the time of the fall of man as contained in Genesis 3:14–15, which has been called the "Proto-Evangelion" or "Proto-Gospel".

And from --
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/e...old-testament/

God’s revelation throughout the Old Testament prefigures, anticipates, and announces beforehand the redemption that he would accomplish in the person and work of his incarnate Son, Jesus Christ.

SUMMARY

When the apostles read the Old Testament, they saw references to Christ and his kingdom, as it were, on every page. Jesus is the second Adam, the perfect law keeper, the scion of David who would sit on David’s throne forever, the ultimate singer of the psalms, the wisdom of God, the suffering servant, the perfect high priest, to name just a few. The theological foundation for this conviction is that God is sovereign over history and he is the (ultimate) author of Scripture. As such, God announced beforehand, in type and shadow, promise and prophecy, the redemption he would accomplish through his incarnate Son. He did this so that his people might believe on the promised Messiah prior to his coming and so that those who know the Christ who has come might have a greater understanding of the work that he accomplished through his suffering and glory.

[waltero]

Christian theology describes the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ not as a new concept, but one that has been foretold throughout the Hebrew scripture (known as the Old Testament in Christian Bibles)

...

Great post!
I'm even taking notes. Read it four times now. Do you think it's actually possible (the three of us coming together in agreement)?

I think we should work on the - "Jesus succumbing to sin" - A bit more. What does it mean to sin, what is Sin? To present ourselves to sin is to say, “Here sin, use my eyes for a while. Use me to sin. Come on into my thoughts and ruminate around.” The only Sin in Jesus's body, the only sin to hit his mind is our sin. He is Lord over all creation. He came to destroy sin and the Devel... That is God in action. God uses sin as a tool. A tool to break sin itself. Think about it? God says Jesus became sin (that's us), and Us having the full righteousness of Jesus (who is now sin) can now overcome sin and its Father the devel. Sin is dead and buried. Jesus didn't come to teach us how to live (because he already lives, all life is in him) He taught us how to Die...get it?

[Wondergirl]

...
Great post!
I'm even taking notes. Read it four times now. Do you think it's actually possible (the three of us coming together in agreement)?

Thanks, waltero!

Yes, we three are Christians. Let's pray and ask our loving Father to guide us toward unity of thoughts and useful discussions of our beliefs.

[waltero]

I think we should work on the - "Jesus succumbing to sin" - A bit more.

What does it mean to sin, what is Sin? To present ourselves to sin is to say, “Here sin, use my eyes for a while. Use me to sin. Come on into my thoughts and ruminate around.” The only Sin in Jesus's body, the only sin to hit his mind is our sin. He is Lord over all creation. He came to destroy sin and the Devel... That is God in action. God uses sin as a tool. A tool to break sin itself. Think about it? God says Jesus became sin (that's us), and Us having the full righteousness of Jesus, we can now overcome sin and its Father the devel. Sin is dead and buried. Jesus didn't come to teach us how to live (because he already lives, all life is in him) He taught us how to Die...get it? Dies to sin. Take on the mind of Christ Jesus...which has eliminated sin before all of creation.

Is this too far out there? Does it make any sense? Because it does to me.

[Wondergirl]

What does it mean to sin, what is Sin?

In short, to sin is to not love. Sin is total love of self, selfishness, thinking only of oneself.

[jlisenbe]

When the apostles read the Old Testament, they saw references to Christ and his kingdom, as it were, on every page. Jesus is the second Adam, the perfect law keeper, the scion of David who would sit on David’s throne forever, the ultimate singer of the psalms, the wisdom of God, the suffering servant, the perfect high priest, to name just a few. The theological foundation for this conviction is that God is sovereign over history and he is the (ultimate) author of Scripture. As such, God announced beforehand, in type and shadow, promise and prophecy, the redemption he would accomplish through his incarnate Son. He did this so that his people might believe on the promised Messiah prior to his coming and so that those who know the Christ who has come might have a greater understanding of the work that he accomplished through his suffering and glory.

I think this is pretty good. The underlined sentence seems to go much too far, but otherwise I like it. The difference is that the Gospel is explicitly taught in the NT over and over again while it is more seen in "types and shadows" in the OT rather than being clearly taught. The great emphasis of the OT is the law of Moses, a means of salvation which proved to be impossible due to the weakness and sinfulness of man. "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh."

In short, to sin is to not love. Sin is total love of self, selfishness, thinking only of oneself.

That's good, but I think sin is much deeper than that. It involves rebellion against the authority and revealed will of God. "The mindset of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit to God’s law. Indeed, it is unable to do so."

[Wondergirl]

That's good, but I think sin is much deeper than that. It involves rebellion against the authority and revealed will of God. "The mindset of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit to God’s law. Indeed, it is unable to do so."

What about the rapists and burglars and murderers and arsonists, etc. who have no knowledge of God's authority and His will? And the many who were born with a mental illness lurking?