[jlisenbe]

I believe what you are saying is that the Holy Bible has become a misnomer.
Might I point out that you have said the same thing regarding Jesus's Holiness.

As if Jesus was able to keep his Holiness intact...next to God not being able to keep his holy word intact.
The Holy Bible still saves!

You are saying this to who?

The Bible does not save, but it does point us to the one who can save.

[waltero]

You are saying this to who?

I thought it was pretty obvious. Saying it to whoever believes Jesus could have chosen (chosen sin over holiness) to sin

.The Bible does not save, but it does point us to the one who can save

should I simply not post things that I know you are going to take issue with? When posting this quote (see above), I knew you would come up with an objection. There is the power of the Holy Scriptures, The Holy Bible does indeed save. Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

I'm open to discussing this, just not here.

I believe what you are saying is that the Holy Bible has become a misnomer.
Might I point out that you have said the same thing regarding Jesus's Holiness.

As if Jesus was able to keep his Holiness intact...next to God not being able to keep his holy word intact.

Is this better? Or maybe I spelled something wrong? Let us keep on track (which has proven to be impossible with the two of you).

Reminds me of the time when Paul was brought in before the Pharisees and Sadducees, when he brought up - the hope and resurrection of the dead.

The two of you seem confused. Something having to do with the interpretation of the Holy Manuscripts...How is the life of Christ any different? I mean he was Holy and was not in any way corrupted. Being that Jesus is the living Word of God, it would hold equally true that the Holy Bible is beyond corruption. They are both intertwined...That is why it would be good for those who don't believe the Bible has remained intact, to start to believe otherwise.

@WG: You have brought up the fact that you have 50+ years on me. What good is it having 50 years of unbelief (believing the Bible is full of discrepancies and false translations etc.)?

I should go back to work. I'll leave the two of you to sort it out.

[Wondergirl]

There is no original Bible. All we have are copies. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Bible manuscripts -- (circa 250 B.C.E.–70 C.E.) are centuries older than Codex Sinaiticus, but are extremely fragmentary and rarely make up anything close to complete books.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/ask-a-s...-oldest-bible/

And...Jesus was true man as well as true God. Yes, He could have given in to sin -- but He didn't.

[jlisenbe]

The Holy Bible does indeed save. Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Walter, you are contending that the Bible does save, but then you post the Romans scripture that most certainly does NOT say the Bible saves, but rather says the Gospel is the power of God to save. The Gospel is in the Bible, but is not the Bible. But if it bothers you to have your ideas questioned, just say so and I will be quite willing to stop posting on your comments.

There is no original Bible. All we have are copies. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Bible manuscripts.

And so what is your point?

but are extremely fragmentary and rarely make up anything close to complete books.

That is partially true. There have been two complete copies of Isaiah found, and they are remarkably close to the Masoretic Text, so there is no compelling reason to think that wholesale changes were made to any books of the Bible.

[Wondergirl]

And so what is your point?

A response to waltero.

[jlisenbe]

Good. I'll let you two sort this out.

[Wondergirl]

Good. I'll let you two sort this out.

Good! JL said Good!!!!

[jlisenbe]

deleted

[waltero]

And...Jesus was true man as well as true God. Yes, He could have given in to sin
There is no original Bible. All we have are copies.

This seems to be the only thing you can come up with. I don't think it is any coincidence, that you - have the same mindset when believing, that both the Son of God and the Bible are Fallable. I don't want your idea of what "man-God" is, or your idea of True "Holiness." Jesus is not running for God, he just is.

Take this for instance:

Jesus was true man as well as true God.

Why do you say "was"? And do you think it's just coincidental that you jotted down Man (before) God? As in (when you said) "Jesus was Man as well as God..." as if Jesus was simply a man of God, Like all the other Men of God throughout the Bible. The difference being - Jesus is the God-man, as in the one and only. Jesus is God and Man aka God-man...the G-in man comes before man.

Some people just don't mind as long as it can just be Jesus in his Humanity, Jesus as a good man, Jesus as a wise man, Jesus as an important man who said important things. Jesus is a man who suffered, Jesus as a Man Who Loved unlike any man has ever loved and all of those things are absolutely true and woefully insufficient
he is the God-man.

In fact, there are people who use Jesus in his Humanity to argue for their sins when you think about for example: The abortion debate, there are people who try to use Jesus in their arguments for abortion. Just be reminded of the fact that the greatest tool or one of the greatest tools of deception that the enemy has is the fact that it has been easy to make people appreciate Jesus in his Humanity.

Jesus is the creator. He is the creator God [as] himself.

[Wondergirl]

Waltero, is Jesus still True Man?

I didn't say the Bible is fallible.

[jlisenbe]

I didn't say the Bible is fallible.

You certainly seemed to imply it when you said, "There is no original Bible. All we have are copies."

[Wondergirl]

You certainly seemed to imply it when you said, "There is no original Bible. All we have are copies."

We have the original?

[waltero]

Waltero, is Jesus still True Man?

You don't need to worry about any of that anymore. You need to know him as your great redeemer, God, and Lord of all! Not using his humanity as you see fit.

I didn't say the Bible is fallible.

You did in as much as you saying it doesn't exist. Yeh, Jesus Humanity still exists for you, but the [original] Bible doesn't exist at all? Maybe the Original Bible doesn't exist, but the Bible I have in my hand right now does (I'm sorry it doesn't for you).

@jl: Do you see now? Do you see why no amount of talking, arguing, debating, discussing, and trying to convince somebody to believe is not what it's about..It can not come about that way. Then you ask - then why am I in here trying to convince? I'm in here doing research, learning the truth. I do it for me, I am not getting too Aggravated, not so much trying to convince. I am using this site as a journal...learning.

As far as the Bible saves. It's complicated and a bit touchy...I haven't got there yet. But the fact that you believe the Bible doesn't save, won't allow you to listen or see anything believable having to do with that subject. You can't take much of what is said here with an open mind. I think that holds true with many Christians when it comes to Bible talk. I'll throw one verse in for you. do with it what you will.

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The Bible can save about as much as you can save, by bringing the gospel to somebody's doorstep. And yes, only Jesus saves. I (personally) understand it as some people are being saved today without knowing Jesus (in name) as their personal savior. Take some of the Jews today, still following the scriptures and believing God in his word...just as they were saved pre-Jesus. I'm not 100 % on this. there is a verse that would back this up. I'll allow you to find it if you ever run into it, you can bring it up to me.

[Wondergirl]

Yes, waltero, I KNOW Jesus as my Redeemer. You implied in Post #69 that he is still true man as well as true God.

We read the Bible. The Bible TELLS us how to be saved. That's what matters.

What doesn't exist are the original manuscripts. All we have are copies. Since they coordinate and reference each other and tell consistent truths, they are accepted and are vital to sustain our faith.

[jlisenbe]

Walter, I actually agree with you that just discussing the Gospel with someone doesn't change their mind. Sometimes we are just sowing seed that will bear a crop at a later time, and other times, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we are allowed to gather in a harvest.

As far as the Bible saves. It's complicated and a bit touchy...I haven't got there yet. But the fact that you believe the Bible doesn't save, won't allow you to listen or see anything believable having to do with that subject. You can't take much of what is said here with an open mind. I think that holds true with many Christians when it comes to Bible talk. I'll throw one verse in for you. do with it what you will.

Jesus does the saving. The Bible points us to him. When thousands were saved in Acts 2, they had no New Testament at all, and few of them had a copy of the OT. So how do you suppose they were saved? In fact that was true of the rest of the Book of Acts and then practically all of the first century. Many people have been saved with radio or television preaching and had no Bible in their possession, and yet Jesus still saved them. Yes, the message of salvation is in the Bible, and perhaps that's what you mean, but the Bible, the book itself, does not save.

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

A wonderful text that does NOT say that the Bible saves.

Just saw this.

And yes, only Jesus saves.

So I think we are in agreement.

WG

What doesn't exist are the original manuscripts. All we have are copies.

If you are not implying that the Bible is flawed, then what is your point?

[waltero]

What doesn't exist are the original manuscripts. All we have are copies.

Why do you consistently bring this up? What are you inferring? Most of the time you bring this up when you want to shut down the truth of the matter at hand.


@JL; I was just wondering. On the matter of Jesus having the capacity to sin...You were Neutral. Are you still on the fence?

[Wondergirl]

Why do you consistently bring this up? What are you inferring? Most of the time you bring this up when you want to shut down the truth of the matter at hand.

I was responding to your wailing with this explanation -- "Since they coordinate and reference each other and tell consistent truths, they are accepted and are vital to sustain our faith."

[waltero]

I was responding to your wailing with this explanaation

Why are you acting dumb all of a sudden? I don't know how many (hundreds if not thousands ) times you've mentioned how fallible man might have influenced the Bible (Word of God).

Bible Saves? Should I go into - in the beginning the Word was...and the Word became flesh and so on and so on?

or; “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

It's my understanding that those (Jews) that have been saved, Pre-Jesus incarnate, are still being saved in the same way as they were in the Old Testament.

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? Clearly, Jesu knew them, but they did not know Jesu by name.

[Wondergirl]

Why are you acting dumb all of a sudden? I don't know how many (hundreds if not thousands)times you've mentioned how fallible man might have influenced the Bible (Word of God).

I have not! All I've said is that we don't have the original Bible, the original manuscripts.

[waltero]

Oh Boy, here we go Again!!! WG, you have brought up (numerous times), in the past. Past Posts. About How we could not trust the Bible being God's word being that man has dabbled with it. And all we have is man's dibble-dabbling manuscripts of God's Word. I can accept that. Let's go with that, you are 100% right. If God wanted man to dibble dabble with his manuscripts, then that is what we have. There we have it, the Holy Bible as God has presented it to us. The living Word!

If you're not going to accept what you have been saying all along, there is no reason why anybody should listen to you. Don't you agree?

(and No!. I'm not going to look up posts that I (and you) know exist.