[jlisenbe]

Just paying you back for all the prejudiced and inaccurate leftie putdowns.

By me? Show me one.

Incredibly, you have just admitted to lying. It's just unbelievable.

[Wondergirl]

By me? Show me one.

Incredibly, you have just admitted to lying. It's just unbelievable.

Read back in this thread. Plus this post.

[tomder55]

. Apparently, once they're born, you turn your back on them. Typical righty.

This is a red herring diversion .The question of the humanity of the baby isn't taken into account. Suppose a parent doesn't want the child that is already born . Would they be justified in wacking it and throwing it in a dumpster ? No . Murder is murder .


This charge of hypocrisy doesn't hold water . There are many more pro life crisis pregnancy centers than there are abortion mills ....funded with private funding (those damn uncaring righties ).They provide parenting classes, clothing and adoption services. Abortion mills provide the means to kill and dispose of babies.

How many adoptions should I do before I can not be labeled a hypocrite when I say murdering a baby is wrong ? To say that unless I'm willing to care for the baby then I have no right to say killing the baby is wrong is an absurd position to take. The answer is that there is no amount of donations I could make or children I could adopt that would change the view that we are not doing enough .

[jlisenbe]

This is a red herring diversion .The question of the humanity of the baby isn't taken into account. Suppose a parent doesn't want the child that is already born . Would they be justified in wacking it and throwing it in a dumpster ? No . Murder is murder .

Absolutely correct. It seems to be true that when a person talks him/herself into a corner, then lashing out at the other side is seen as some avenue of escape. A better alternative is to rethink your position.

Read back in this thread.

Yes, read back in this thread, JL. There just has to be something somewhere!! I have no idea where it is, but it just MUST be there.

[Wondergirl]

Absolutely true. It seems to be true that when a person talks him/herself into a corner, then lashing out at the other side is seen as some avenue of escape.

And you do that so smoothly. And cherry-picking the Bible and articles that I post.

[jlisenbe]

And you do that so smoothly.

Somewhere...somewhere...somewhere...somewhere.

Sorry WG, but Tom and I have both seen it. You're busted.

[jlisenbe]

Gov. Newsome in Cali is pushing this legislation that would allow for infant deaths up to 28 days after birth. I wonder if WG approves of this?

Newsom and his legislature do not stop with basic abortion. AB 2223 has been dubbed the “Baby Slayer” bill. According to legal experts, The Baby Slayer Bill will block the prosecution of mothers for any and all “pregnancy losses” they consent to, regardless of how the baby is “lost.”

Because the Baby Slayer Bill includes the term “perinatal,” it extends the time to kill babies past birth. Perinatal, by definition, means after birth. If there is no intent to extend protection for those who fail to assist babies that survive abortion, then why include the term “perinatal?”

California law states that the perinatal period goes from birth until at least the first 28 days of life or more. So long as the mom consents and so long as a doctor points to “causes that occurred in utero” for the death of a baby under a month old, AB 2223 will act to cover up why the baby died.

The sickness just continues.

[Wondergirl]

Gov. Newsome in Cali is pushing this legislation that would allow for infant deaths up to 28 days after birth. I wonder if WG approves of this?

You want to shoot immigrants and refugees at the southern border. Grown-up babies.

[Athos]

The question of the humanity of the baby isn't taken into account.

What exactly is it about a zygote that makes you think it's a baby?

[tomder55]

Because a babies life begins at conception . However ,the zygote phase lasts all of 4 days . Abortions happen to babies well after the zygote phase . The baby is past the zygote phase before implantation .

[jlisenbe]

Correct. Abortion does not concern zygotes, though the zygote is fully human and only needs time to grow.

I can't get over the idea that people actually are embracing the idea that we can anesthetize the unborn child so that he/she feels no pain when being killed. It's difficult to describe how disgustingly bizarre it is to see a human being treated like a dog or cat that needs to be put down.

[Athos]

Because a babies life begins at conception . However ,the zygote phase lasts all of 4 days . Abortions happen to babies well after the zygote phase . The baby is past the zygote phase before implantation .

You didn't answer the question. Let me ask it another way. What exactly is it about conception that makes you think the result is a baby at the moment of conception?

[tomder55]

Silly question The answer is because it is a human life at the moment of conception. At any stage a zygote or a fetus can die naturally .Left alone that zygot or whatever scientific mumbo jumbo phrase applies becomes a human .

At what stage in a person's development is it ok to murder them ? Before birth at a specific day ? After birth ? Some doctors are saying after birth abortion is acceptable . (see Francesca Minerva and Alberto Giubilini in the 'Journal of Medical Ethics '


How about before that child becomes adolescent ? We know those teen years can sometimes be an inconvenient b*tch on parents .

How about before adulthood ? After all no child is truly free and independent deserving of rights while still in the care of adults .

How about the elderly . They can be an inconvenient burden . WACK THEM TOO !!!
Netherlands Forcible Euthanasia Case and the Slippery Slope - Charlotte Lozier Institute

[jlisenbe]

How about the elderly . They can be an inconvenient burden . WACK THEM TOO !!!

Is already marginally here, but I think that's the next big wave coming in addition to knocking off disabled infants. We've already seen a tremendous decline in the births of Down's syndrome children since the condition can be detected prenatally, and it is estimated that nearly 90% of unborn babies diagnosed with the condition are killed in abortion.

This is an excerpt from the story you linked. Thankfully, the wonderful, caring doctor was sensitive enough to anesthetize the woman so that killing her would cause her no discomfort.

The woman, who was suffering from dementia, had in the past expressed a willingness to seek euthanasia, which is legal in the Netherlands, but only when “the time was right.” She had been confined to a nursing home and was known to wander the halls there and to display signs of fear and anger.

The senior doctor at the nursing home concluded that she was in “intolerable suffering” and that her dementia had reached the point that she was no longer capable of determining when the “time was right” to request euthanasia.

So the doctor took it upon herself to make that determination.

[tomder55]

yes the barn door has been opened . This all goes back to callus leaders who say take a pain killer instead of getting treatment .

Obama's Health Care Solution for Elderly - Just take a Pill - YouTube

[Athos]

The answer is because it is a human life at the moment of conception.

That's not an answer. It's a statement of what you think. My questions is WHY do you think that. WHY do you think a human life is created at conception? WHY? This is my third attempt to understand your belief.

Are you avoiding answering? If you don't want to answer, that's ok. Just say so and I'll stop asking. I'm beginning to think you don't KNOW WHY.



For the rest below, you're way off on a wild tangent. It really seems like you're avoiding the issue I'm inquiring about. Like I said, just tell me you don't want to answer and I'll go away.

At what stage in a person's development is it ok to murder them ? Before birth at a specific day ? After birth ? Some doctors are saying after birth abortion is acceptable . (see Francesca Minerva and Alberto Giubilini in the 'Journal of Medical Ethics '
How about before that child becomes adolescent ? We know those teen years can sometimes be an inconvenient b*tch on parents .
How about before adulthood ? After all no child is truly free and independent deserving of rights while still in the care of adults .
How about the elderly . They can be an inconvenient burden . WACK THEM TOO !!!
Netherlands Forcible Euthanasia Case and the Slippery Slope - Charlotte Lozier Institute

Your link in post 35 doesn't imply anything like you're suggesting. You lose credibility by doing that.

[tomder55]

Is this a question about when human life begins or when a human person begins ? The answer to the first question is a scientific fact . Life begins at conception. The answer to the second question is philosophical .


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."

(.Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988)

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
( Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition.Carlson, Bruce M. Patte)

[jlisenbe]

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell,

I wonder which of the higher animals don't start in that manner?

[jlisenbe]

The fat lady running for Senate in Georgia has hit on it. The answer for inflation is...get an abortion!!

"But let’s be clear. Having children is why you’re worried about your price for gas, it’s why you’re concerned about how much food costs. For women, this is not a reductive issue. You can’t divorce being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy from the economic realities of having a child. And so these are — it’s important for us to have ‘both and’ conversations. We don’t have the luxury of reducing it or separating them out," Abrams said.

I wonder how much longer it will be before she suggests that after we get rid of all of those budget-busting unborn children, maybe we should look at some of the ones who are here post-birth. After all, if we knock off a few million of them, then we would save all sorts of money. Fewer schools, less money spent on food, lower transportation costs, and lower clothing costs.

You can always count on those liberal dems to suggest something practical. And speaking of something practical, perhaps an alternative to the killing of hundreds of thousands of human beings would be for women who don't want to have a baby to not get pregnant? I mean, we're living in the golden age of birth control, so why not use it?

And yes, that is just one white man's opinion.

[Athos]

Is this a question about when human life begins or when a human person begins ? The answer to the first question is a scientific fact . Life begins at conception. The answer to the second question is philosophical .

You make no distinction between human life and life. I do. You believe human life begins at conception. I don't. You believe human life starting at conception is a scientific fact. No, it is not a scientific fact. You believe, more or less accurately, that the beginning of HUMAN life or personhood is a philosophical question. I could live with that, but you didn't answer that philosophical question.

"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."

(.Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988)

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."

( Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition.Carlson, Bruce M. Patte)

I won't spend a lot of time on the science aspect, since there are just as many scientists who do not think human life begins at conception. Let's avoid dueling science quotes. In plain language, a fertilized egg does not look like a baby, does not smell like a baby, does not act like a baby or do any of the things associated with a baby. Oh, say the anti-abortion crowd, it has DNA so it is a baby. A severed arm has DNA also. Is a severed arm a baby?

Here's a good link discussing the topic of a baby at conception.
https://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/07/medical-views-when-does-human-life-begin/

Now, on to the philosophical approach. I will summarize the philosophy from the religious point of view which has determined the key issues in abortion.

In the 1869 document Apostolicae Sedis, Pope Pius IX declared the penalty of excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. Up to then Catholic teaching for 1,500 years was that no homicide was involved if abortion took place before the foetus was infused with a soul, known as “ensoulment”.

Earlier, Aristotle called it “quickening”, the time when the mother first felt movement in the womb occurring at approximately 24 weeks. The great Churchmen Augustine, Jerome, and Aquinas all agreed.

Those saints never doubted that what they were dealing with from the moment of conception was life. What preoccupied them was when that life became a human person. They did not accept that a collection of biochemical elements with potential was a person. In those pre-scientific days they settled on quickening as the great indicator of personhood. If such a collection of biochemical elements is to be afforded the status of personhood, should this not also apply to limbs and organs removed through surgery, etc? Why no funeral rites for those? If a human person exists from conception, why are those who miscarry soon after conception not afforded baptism and funerals?

If the zygote has “potential” human life, it should also mean that every sperm and every ovum ought to be preserved due to its potential personhood given the right circumstances? What about all those potential “people” denied existence?

Current anti-abortion positions owe their belief to Catholic dogma, not to science.

In 1854 the same Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception a dogma of the church. It teaches that Mary, mother of Jesus, was conceived without original sin, thus solving an age-old conundrum – how could the Son of God be born of a woman with original sin on her soul? It was decided she was born without original sin on her soul.

And when in 1854 Pius IX proclaimed the Immaculate Conception a dogma of the church, he stated that Mary had been free from sin “in the first instant of her conception”.

Fifteen years later, in 1869, he was being consistent with that teaching when he announced the penalty of excommunication for abortion at any stage of pregnancy.

Now, what is the point of all that history? Keep reading.

In the mid-to-late 19^th century, on a parallel line, Protestant scholars began to examine the Bible with a view to modern techniques of analysis – textual criticism, language, etc. This excellent work was a threat to the evangelicals. Thus began the fundamentalism of the more extreme groups. In the 1920s, the Catholic Church became a target of the fundamentalists, calling it the “Whore of Babylon”.

When the fundamentalists evolved through the 20th century, abortion became a trigger issue since it was relatively easy to pick a position for or against. After all, it was murder, wasn't it? And God forbade killing. By 2016 it had become the key issue of the white evangelical fundamentalists - an issue for above any other. The great irony is that the anti-abortion belief they hold was created by the Catholic Church - that "Whore of Babylon".

Another historical irony is the opposition to abortion by the 19th century medical establishment. This was due to unwelcome competition from the midwives of the day. Today the medical profession has reversed itself, being primarily in support of abortion.

(The above ideas were complied from Catholic, Protestant, secular, and scientific sources).