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jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 11:38 AM

his false belief that Jesus condemns unbelievers to hell for eternal punishment.

For the fifteenth time, I have not said that. It is the clear teaching of the NT. Should I post the passages again?

No one has live an "exemplary" life but one.

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No one has live an "exemplary" life but one.

Exemplary -- serving as a desirable model; representing the best of its kind.

I know lots of people who lived and who are living exemplary lives full of love and a giving spirit.

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 11:44 AM

I know lots of people who lived and who are living exemplary lives full of love and giving.

By whose standard? Paul spends an two chapters in Romans 2 and 3 disagreeing with you. He spends eight chapters in Romans showing that good works do not make a person right with God.

Have you ever read the Bible?

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

By whose standard? Paul spends an two chapters in Romans 2 and 3 disagreeing with you. He spends eight chapters in Romans showing that good works do not make a person right with God.

James 2:
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 11:58 AM

You do realize that the founder of your Lutheran faith did not want James included in the NT because he realized that people like you would misuse it?

If you include verse 20, it makes more sense. "20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" James is arguing that an empty, lifeless faith that produces no fruit is really not faith. Verse 26 (which you left out) shows the same thing. "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." Verse 14, which introduces the passage, says it clearly. "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? "

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You do realize that the founder of your Lutheran faith did not want James included in the NT because he realized that people like you would misuse it?

Oh, but I was cherrypicking like you so love to do.

Luther didn't understand the book of James. Luther taught that the Book of James contradicted the doctrine of sola fide, or justification by faith alone. If he’s right about this, then either the Bible is wrong, or Protestants are wrong.

Hmmm, wonder which one is wrong

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 12:08 PM

Yes, you were cherry-picking. It can easily be shown to be the case by the use of context (which I did) and the use of other texts showing that your approach was wrong which I did earlier by referring to Romans. So you can't just allege cherry-picking. You have to demonstrate it.

See how that works?

I think you are right that Luther did not understand the book of James, but I'm hesitant to become too critical with the man. His contributions to the faith were enormous.

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yes, you were cherry-picking. It can easily be shown to be the case by the use of context (which I did) and the use of other texts showing that your approach was wrong which I did earlier by referring to Romans.

Yes, I know how it works, have watched you for a long time as you've cherrypicked and ignored context.

I think you are right that Luther did not understand the book of James, but I'm hesitant to become too critical with the man. His contributions to the faith were enormous.

Luther had a lot of gastrointestinal problems. Hmm........

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 12:28 PM

Yes, I know how it works, have watched you if a long time as you've cherrypicked and ignored context.

You continually allege it, but you are never able to demonstrate it. And the reason is, as I have told you, that 32 separate passages which carry the same message cannot amount to cherry-picking in any known universe.

Have a good day. I'm gonezo.

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You continually allege it, but you are never able to demonstrate it. And the reason is, as I have told you, that 32 separate passages which carry the same message cannot amount to cherry-picking in any known universe.

Only 32??? Surely you jest!

I thought we talked about how to correctly use "which" and "that".

Have a good day. I'm gonezo.

Time to think of an idea for a new thread that will intrigue Mr. JL.

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 02:49 PM

Only 32??? Surely you jest.

Nope. You have an easy, first grade level task. You simply find all the places in the NT where it says there is no hell and no judgment. So far you haven't found...one. Would four or five be too much to hope for? Two??? Two thirds of a passage?? Two words even??? BTW, I actually have 46 now, and that is by no means exhaustive. Would you care to see them?

I leave you to your task.

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Nope. You have an easy, first grade level task. You simply find all the places in the NT where it says there is no hell and no judgment. So far you haven't found...one. Would four or five be too much to hope for? Two??? Two thirds of a passage?? Two words even??? BTW, I actually have 46 now, and that is by no means exhaustive. Would you care to see them?

I leave you to your task.

I'm not the one arguing with you about hell and judgment.

P.S. Proof passages are NOT the way to make your point.

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 03:52 PM

They are certainly not a method you can employ. But I'm glad to hear you have dropped out.

Athos · Jul 13, 2021, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

For the fifteenth time, I have not said that. It is the clear teaching of the NT.

Here's the crux of the matter.

Every time I try to get Jl to acknowledge that he believes Jesus condemns unbelievers to hell for eternal punishment, he replies, "Jesus said that, not me. Your argument is with Jesus." Yet, he calls it the "clear teaching of the NT".

Since Jesus is not available for comment, Jl refuses to defend what Jesus supposedly said even though he believes it is the clear teaching of the NT.

After two+ years, he finally loosened a bit due to being placed in a logical corner and denied that children go to hell. That was at least a beginning.

He later described Jesus as a "judge who will send people to hell at the end of time." He's backsliding a bit here, by not excluding children under the word "people".

There were other examples - the Chinese peasant woman who lived 10,000 miles away from Jesus and who never heard a single solitary thing about Jesus. She went to hell.

For every example I gave, Jl simply quoted another verse from the Bible. Your loyalty to a false reading of the Bible, JL, is admirable, but misplaced.

from JLisnbe
Athos lied when he said this. "According to your own stated belief, the children will wind up in hell to be eternally tortured because they did not believe in Jesus." I've never said that

That's an excellent example of his inability to see the logic involved. It's very simple. If unbelievers go to hell, and some children do not believe (maybe they never heard of Jesus since they lived far away or even before Jesus walked the earth) they would still be condemned to hell by his own logic.

I have not stated my belief about hell and judgment for a simple reason. If he will not accept the words of Jesus, then why should he accept my words?

This is a first - an admission that he has not stated his belief about hell and judgement. The reason? Athos will not accept the words of Jesus, so why should he accept the words of Jl?

Answer: I, Athos, have never said I don't accept the words of Jesus. What I don't accept are the words of the author of Matthew interpreted as saying Jesus condemned unbelievers to hell for eternal punishment. Jl believes those words. I don't.

Finally, Jl HAS stated his belief in hell and judgement by saying it is the clear teaching of the NT.

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 04:28 PM

You understand the meaning of what I have posted. I have not said, "I believe xxx," and yet, from the texts I have posted, you understand what the Bible teaches. That's what posting many texts do for a person. The meaning becomes clear. Your argument is indeed with Jesus and the NT, and is exactly why I have not attempted to interpret the scriptures. The meaning is clear and you cannot say, "I don't like what JL thinks," because I haven't posted what I think but what the Bible, in many, many places, clearly teaches. That's why you are aggravated. You realize very clearly your dilemma.

The older I get, the less interested I become in telling people what I think. I speak the Bible and point people to Jesus, and it is to Him I point you.

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I speak the Bible and point people to Jesus, and it is to Him I point you.

That's definitely not the Jesus I've known and loved all my life.

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 04:47 PM

Then it's not the Jesus of the Bible. You can't just make up your own Jesus, you know.

I'm amazed sometimes at you guys at how offended you are at what Jesus said about Himself and about us. I have not said these things. It is not my interpretation. It is what He has said.

Wondergirl · Jul 13, 2021, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Then it's not the Jesus of the Bible. You can't just make up your own Jesus, you know.

My Jesus is the living, breathing Jesus who rejoiced with me when I got married, when I had our two beautiful babies, a Jesus who comforted me when our younger son unexpectedly died, again when my dad died between sentences at a congregation meeting, yet again when my mom died of Alzheimer's, and was there for me each time I was diagnosed with a possibly deadly disease -- cancer, cellulitis, aplastic anemia. He's here with me right now as I come to the end of this day.

Athos · Jul 13, 2021, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You understand the meaning of what I have posted. I have not said, "I believe xxx," and yet, from the texts I have posted, you understand what the Bible teaches.

I'm not sure what this even means.

That's what posting many texts do for a person.

Posting many texts in lieu of personal testimony is a fools' way out.

Your argument is indeed with Jesus and the NT

No, my argument is with YOU, Jl.

and is exactly why I have not attempted to interpret the scriptures. The meaning is clear

Every time you say the meaning is clear, you are approving the Bible passage in question. You can't get around it, my friend.

and you cannot say, "I don't like what JL thinks,

Of course I can say it. Watch - "I don't like what Jl thinks"

" because I haven't posted what I think but what the Bible, in many, many places, clearly teaches.

Jl, you're famous for making weak arguments, but this one is over the top. Not a member here doesn't know what you think.

That's why you are aggravated. You realize very clearly your dilemma.

Here's another common tactic of yours. Call your opponent aggravated, weak, liar, angry, hates Christ, and any other malice hiding in that head of yours. Sorry, Jl, that's never the way to win an argument.

The older I get, the less interested I become in telling people what I think.

You sure couldn't prove that by your activity here!

I speak the Bible and point people to Jesus, and it is to Him I point you.

In the end, it all comes down to Bibliolatry for Jl.

jlisenbe · Jul 13, 2021, 05:45 PM

My Jesus is the living, breathing Jesus who rejoiced with me when I got married, when I had our two beautiful babies, a Jesus who comforted me when our younger son unexpectedly died, again when my dad died between sentences at a congregation meeting, yet again when my mom died of Alzheimer's, and was there for me each time I was diagnosed with a possibly deadly disease -- cancer, cellulitis, aplastic anemia. He's here with me right now as I come to the end of this day.

The Jesus of the Bible is the only Jesus. Not saying you don't know Him, but when you don't accept what He said about Himself, you are engaged in foolishness.

Athos, if you have a belief, then support it with the Bible the way I have done. If you can't, then it's just opinion.