[jlisenbe]

Evidence of pregnancy: I get sick to my stomach when thinking of making supper, I'm tired all the time, and I'm a lot crabbier.
Proof of pregnancy: an ultrasound.

Well said.

[Athos]

@ Athos;
The argument that your using is a reductio ad absurdum, In other words, taking something that is true and reducing it to a level that is absolutely absurd, whereby you then use it as a mechanism to refute the reality of the premise. That’s what your doing. What your saying is, “To believe in the evidence just ridiculous.”

I understand your need to appear savvy in the discussion by googling logical fallacies like reductio ad absurdam, but you're way over your head, Walter. Best to just approach it simply in your own words like WG suggested. Your assertion that I'm saying, "To believe in the evidence is just ridiculous" is a lie Walter, and you know it's a lie. You have now consistently changed my words to suit your claims. Please Walter, where in the Bible does it say to do that? Don't let your frustration lead you down a dark path.

@Athos, You asked a Question; "Why do Christians think they can Prove the existence of God" (all the Tyyyme). How can Christian's Prove there is a God...Look at their Fruit.

By that reasoning, Walter, "Look at their fruit", you are claiming that anyone with good "fruit" is therefore a proof of whatever God they may believe in? Are you ready to acknowledge the many Gods that would represent? All those good Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., etc. That's a step up for you, Walter, getting out of that prison you have locked yourself into.

You being a "Christian"- your argument makes no sense.

In that case, please make your own argument. You have not done so yet - stating your beliefs is not making an argument.

Only a person who belongs to the world would ask such a question with such Confidence. Believing there is no Proof, thereby Not believing. "Believe" in the Spirit. Don't believe as the world believes.

It's hard to untangle this rant/ramble. The only sentence understandable is, "Believing there is no Proof, thereby Not believing." If you're suggesting this is my position, it is not, and never has been. A cursory reading of what I've written will tell you that. The truth is causing you to write borderline hysterically, the truth will do that. The truth will also set you free.

It appears you have no Idea of what I am talking about,

Sadly, I have a better idea than you yourself about what you are saying.

God Bless Brother.

Walter, under the circumstances I find that hypocritical. After calling me names, saying I'm a liar, denying just about everything I've said, and according to your belief, I'm destined for hell for all eternity (since you claim I'm an unbeliever), you now want God to bless me. I think you evangelicals say things like that to come across as a holy believer - "holier than thou" as the saying goes.

[jlisenbe]

Hang in there Walter. No one distorts someone else’s words more than Athos does.

[Wondergirl]

Hang in there Walter. No one distorts someone else’s words more than Athos does.

Actually, Athos is doing his best to untangle waltero's words and sentences and, by doing so, figure out what he means. I truly wish waltero would state his beliefs very simply, possibly in list form, so there's no confusion or misunderstanding.

Think of John Grisham and all those courtroom dramas you've read. The lawyers presented evidence of innocence or guilt. Did either lawyer's evidence offer sufficient proof for the jury so they would free or convict?

[Athos]

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Hang in there Walter. No one distorts someone else’s words more than Athos does.

Actually, Athos is doing his best to untangle waltero's words and sentences and, by doing so, figure out what he means. I truly wish waltero would state his beliefs very simply, possibly in list form, so there's no confusion or misunderstanding.

Thanks, WG. I didn't know jl was still stalking me. He can't seem to get me out of his head. My posts must really sting him. Hoping Walter follows your advice.

[talaniman]

I just take the biblical perspective and live a quiet life

Hmm...we could end up in the same place. What does it matter what you think God is?

[paraclete]

It matters a great deal, if I get it wrong, I have not truly believed

[jlisenbe]

Like he did his best to “untangle” the words of Aquinas?

It matters a great deal, if I get it wrong, I have not truly believed

So very true.

[talaniman]

It matters a great deal, if I get it wrong, I have not truly believed

Maybe you'll be forgiven for being WRONG.

[waltero]

[Evidence of pregnancy: I get sick to my stomach when thinking of making supper, I'm tired all the time, and I'm a lot crabbier]

Proof of pregnancy: an ultrasound

I like this, Thank you.
Seeing is Proof?

[waltero]

I'll try to keep this shorter than my usual ramblings. There's a lot going on up there (head). nobody knows what's going on up there!?!
I do thank you for all your advice. I hear you and will try to put it into practice.

I might have been picking on Athos.
I am sorry for that. I have much to learn.
People say I have no tact, don't know why.
There is no doubt you guys are much smarter than I. I will try to keep it short and to the point. Most times I might only read a response one time. I find when doing that I usually misinterpret. If I read it again and not respond so quickly!

[Wondergirl]

[Evidence of pregnancy: I get sick to my stomach when thinking of making supper, I'm tired all the time, and I'm a lot crabbier]

Proof of pregnancy: an ultrasound

I like this, Thank you.
Seeing is Proof?

Yes. Seeing is believing, as the saying goes.

From John 20:
11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?” “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her. 19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

[waltero]

I don't believe that is entirely true,

Maybe we can touch on that at a later date. I would like to try and touch base on the first issue at this time?
I get lost all too easily.

[Wondergirl]

I don't believe that is entirely true,

Maybe we can touch on that at a later date. I would like to try and touch base on the first issue at this time?
I get lost all too easily.

Start a new thread! (under Christianity or Social Science [Psychology]?)

[jlisenbe]

What did Jesus tell thomas about “seeing”?

[Wondergirl]

What did Jesus tell thomas about “seeing”?

Now you're talking about FAITH, a whole different ballgame apart from EVIDENCE and PROOF.

Thomas makes his own individual test, his personal direct seeing of the visible marks of the crucifixion and even the touching of these marks, the absolute condition and the non-negotiable term for believing.

Christ addresses him with a remark and a beatitude: Thomas, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and (yet) have believed (John 20:29).”

[jlisenbe]

So seeing is really not necessary for believing.

[waltero]

Earlier, in this thread, I was trying to show similarities using the Sadducees, question directed towered Jesus... Similar to the question; "Proving the evidence of God."

If you know anything about the Sadducees you would know that they don't believe in the Resurrection.

Question put to Jesus by the Sadducees;
So here they are saying; - "in the Reserection"- hahahaha, yah - in the Reserection - you mean the Reserection they don't believe.
reductio ad absurdam.

Their question is totally absurd...if you don't agree with this analysis
(You got the short version),
I am able to explain in full, at a later date...I'm on my phone right now and it sucks.

Question; show me the evidence/proof of God?

Here it is; Creation...no, geography...no, science...no, Biology...no, Nation of israel...no, Bible...no, Jesus...No, the Church...no etc...no, no, no, NOOO!

It Doesn't matter. Come what will the world view is always a no in deciding the evidence factor...they don't "Believe" (we want to see) "in" the evidence, therefore the evidence will never exist (putting to death what was seen... Non-existent! Asking to prove the evidence exists. Thinking that there is no evidence outside of sight. Believing that if they were to see, they would then believe.


Most christians will believe/agree in the evidence.
The World will not...they are blind to it.

Many women (with absolute certainty) know they're pregnant. Believing in the "evidence of pregnancy." They don't need to see the proof.
The proof is in them.

[Wondergirl]

Most christians will believe/agree in the evidence.
The World will not...they are blind to it.

For those Christians, they believe because they have FAITH.

Many women (with absolute certainty) know they're pregnant. Believing in the "evidence of pregnancy." They don't need to see the proof.
The proof is in them.

They have FAITH they are pregnant. All the EVIDENCE says they are. The PROOF is an ultrasound -- or a baby delivered after about nine months.

[waltero]

No, she has come to believe based on the evidence which you described. The proof is in the evidence.
Such as a first time pregnancy being declared by a midwife.

Even if you are correct, how is she able to once again disregard the evidence?



I have a question:
How is a Christian able to pose a question like that (poof/God)...and refute all evidence,..
Already believing in the evidence that is all around us? Lacks uderstanding/faith or is it somebody Playing devils advocate???