[Wondergirl]

Let me put it this way. I anticipate making a good score.

My worst fears have come to pass.

[jlisenbe]

My worst fears have come to pass.

Life can sure be tough.

[paraclete]

and apparently in the opinion of some, made tougher

[jlisenbe]

My worst fears have come to pass.

Now what can you really have on the test? The names of the three falls, the fact that one of them was dry at one time, and what makes the Canadian Falls different from the American Falls. What else could you have?

[Wondergirl]

Now what can you really have on the test? The names of the three falls, the fact that one of them was dry at one time, and what makes the Canadian Falls different from the American Falls. What else could you have?

Have you read all the material I passed out to the class? If so, you'll be okay. Or maybe not. There may be a few surprise questions.

[jlisenbe]

There may be a few surprise questions.

Now I'm worried.

Have a wonderful Easter. Celebrate and honor the risen Lord.

[Athos]

Sure they do. By the hundreds and hundreds, highly educated, thoroughly professional people just repeat an error that, it just so happens, disturbs you. It is a thousand times more likely that the mistake lies with you and not with them. Sorry, but I'm just not going to buy that idea. Very few reasonable people would.

Here's a brief lesson on textual criticism. It's the study of various versions of the Gospels (Scripture). There are many translations and revised versions of the Bible. For example the KJV was written a few centuries before the earliest Greek scriptures were discovered. The earliest complete Gospels date from the 3rd-4th century. That is time enough for slight omissions or errors to be made. Copies were generally made by scribes - not scholars. Many of the scholars (Protestant and Catholic) had biases and pressure to conform to certain doctrines.

Even the autograph gospels had differences in Jesus' words and actions, but none to threaten his essential core message. Extend the copying over 2,000 years and it's easy to accept some differences. That can easily explain the heaven/hell wording.

I have never left Jesus out of the equation. You can't read Rev. 20 and get that idea. Sinners go to hell because of their sins. It is judgement for sin. Jesus is our deliverance from that fate. Jesus himself said, “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” That is the part that has you confused.

Yes, it has me very confused. When I brought up people who never heard of Jesus - babies and Buddhists - you seemed to backtrack and left out the belief in Jesus part because, of course, they would be unable to believe if they had never heard of him. Can you now make a clear statement about who goes to hell for eternal punishment? Not just Sinners - that's far too vague.

If it's there, then post it. I'm not going to play the "google it" game. To be clear, I am looking for that "smoking gun" scripture that tells us about someone getting out of hell and going to heaven since he had suffered enough for his sins.

You asked the question about purgatory and I gave you the best way to get your question answered. Now you refuse to do what I recommended because you don't play google games. Google is an excellent way to find out, and in this instance, by far the best way. Yet, you refuse.

The controversy concerns the resurrection, not His existence.

No argument there.

The strange thing to me is this. Why do you bother with any of this if you don't believe in the authority of the Bible? Why would you care?

I don't remember ever saying I didn't believe in the Bible. What I don't believe in is your erroneous and literal understanding of the Bible.

What is strange to me about this discussion is that you generally don't respond to the things I present other than hurling insults and nastiness - to which I am happy to return in kind.

[jlisenbe]

Here's a brief lesson on textual criticism. It's the study of various versions of the Gospels (Scripture). There are many translations and revised versions of the Bible. For example the KJV was written a few centuries before the earliest Greek scriptures were discovered. The earliest complete Gospels date from the 3rd-4th century. That is time enough for slight omissions or errors to be made. Copies were generally made by scribes - not scholars. Many of the scholars (Protestant and Catholic) had biases and pressure to conform to certain doctrines.

Even the autograph gospels had differences in Jesus' words and actions, but none to threaten his essential core message. Extend the copying over 2,000 years and it's easy to accept some differences. That can easily explain the heaven/hell wording.

You left out some things such as the fact that scribes were generally highly dedicated, professional individuals who employed safeguards to keep their work accurate. You also failed to mention that the manuscript evidence for the NT is abundant, especially in relationship to other ancient texts. It is nonsense to contend that scribes made wholesale changes to the manuscripts in such a way that could not have been detected. Still, you were generally accurate, but you said nothing to defend your position that you are right and hundreds of scholars have been essentially duped. It is just a ridiculous position, so much so that I'm surprised you insist on continuing with it.

You asked the question about purgatory and I gave you the best way to get your question answered. Now you refuse to do what I recommended because you don't play google games. Google is an excellent way to find out, and in this instance, by far the best way. Yet, you refuse.

Already very adequately answered. No, I don't play the "google it" game. If you know, then respond. If you don't know, then simply say you don't know. The "google it" response is usually a cheap way of trying to hide a lack of knowledge. That's why I don't play that game.

I have not said sinners go to hell. I have said, and it is in complete agreement with the words of Christ, that people go to hell for their sins. It is only in Christ that sins are forgiven. Do you agree with the words of Christ from John 8? "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

What is strange to me about this discussion is that you generally don't respond to the things I present other than hurling insults and nastiness - to which I am happy to return in kind.

If you find a comment of mine to be "nasty", then point it out and we can discuss it. As to your questions, they are being, and have been, answered. I have already made a clear statement about who goes to hell, but I'll make an agreement with you. I will again state my belief if you will guarantee us all that you will follow it with a clear statement of your belief.

[talaniman]

You left out some things such as the fact that scribes were generally highly dedicated, professional individuals who employed safeguards to keep their work accurate. You also failed to mention that the manuscript evidence for the NT is abundant, especially in relationship to other ancient texts. It is nonsense to contend that scribes made wholesale changes to the manuscripts in such a way that could not have been detected. Still, you were generally accurate, but you said nothing to defend your position that you are right and hundreds of scholars have been essentially duped. It is just a ridiculous position, so much so that I'm surprised you insist on continuing with it.

None of the things you stated are facts I'd be interested in knowing those safeguards for accuracy were as opposed to consensus to appeal to an agreeable position as did other writers of the day on the same subject.

The bible and any other works of man ever recorded is subject to the authority of the day and whatever they deemed important or relevant. The ancient Christian movement had many sects and off shoots that produced many bibles, and writings until almost by consensus and popularity, mostly regional/local one version was adapted and promoted, and that's the product we have now and worth noting is the various version that exist. It's actually fascinating to observe and study the evolution of culture and society as it grows and consolidates and hones its dogma, traditions and customs into one dominant clear message for it's followers, and unless you are an "independent" religions outside the affiliations of the mainstream, then you are at least a local part of a national and international body of some religious agreement.

So those ancient men didn't just tune into God to come up with a finished product, they reached a consensus, to make that finished product we call the bible (Or any other final product man makes for public consumption), as the goal was to out compete the competition for public attention and support. Now if any one thinks that a lot of liberal license was not taken to that end, in language use and meanings, then think again, because that's what people to rise above the other voices. To even think there was no competition between the original disciples of Christ after the crucifixion, would be ignoring the basic human nature of just surviving, while spreading the word of Jesus in a break from the Jewish traditions of the day which they and Jesus were a part of. Yes Jesus was a Jew, NOT a Christian, and if there is a historical record of him leaving the Jewish faith please share that with me.

No religion can survive without followers, or at least curry interest enough to make people stop and listen, and then as now you still have to have enough sponsorship to keep it going. So in todays world least we forget the simple message of the one who's tribulations sparked this huge holiday shared by many, share love not hate.

Leave it to other humans to making a simple thing into a big mess.

[jlisenbe]

So those ancient men didn't just tune into God to come up with a finished product, they reached a consensus, to make that finished product we call the bible (Or any other final product man makes for public consumption), as the goal was to out compete the competition for public attention and support.

That is far removed from the Christian faith. God sent His Son to reveal the truth to us, not to ask us for our opinions. He has no interest at all in any human consensus from the perspective of establishing truth. Our job is to agree with His word and will. Jesus leaves no room whatsoever for any appeal to consensus. He never adjusted His message in order to gain the approval of man.

As the author of Hebrews puts it, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." The greatness of Christ demands our worship and obedience.

[Wondergirl]

I have not said sinners go to hell. I have said, and it is in complete agreement with the words of Christ, that people go to hell for their sins. It is only in Christ that sins are forgiven. Do you agree with the words of Christ from Joahn 8? "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

What about the mentally ill, the developmentally disabled, those with Down's syndrome (and other genetic disorders), the tribes living in remote places, the unborn (miscarriages and abortions), the babies before the age of reason? What about anyone who doesn't -- or can't -- believe because of extenuating circumstances over which they have no control?

[jlisenbe]

You don't answer my questions. Why should I answer yours?

[Wondergirl]

You don't answer my questions. Why should I answer yours?

I wasn't asking you.

According to your statement, they're going to hell.

[jlisenbe]

I guess the question mark at the end made it seem like a question. But since you're not asking me, then there is no need for an answer.

According to your statement, they're going to hell.

Your conclusion.

[Wondergirl]

I guess the question mark at the end made it seem like a question. But since you're not asking me, then there is no need for an answer.

Your conclusion.

Well, then, feel free to explain!

[jlisenbe]

I feel very free.

[Wondergirl]

I feel very free.

Please put your clothes back on!

[jlisenbe]

Watch yourself!

[Athos]

You left out some things such as the fact that scribes were generally highly dedicated, professional individuals who employed safeguards to keep their work accurate.

Scribes, vis-a-vis the New Testament (Gospels), were generally monastics skilled in the art of writing/printing but not scholars. In fact, they usually did not know the language they were copying from unless the source was their own language. They were allowed one mistake per page and completed 3-4 pages during daylight. The Scriptorium Master checked their work and corrected any mistakes they may have made. However, not all mistakes were caught by the Masters. This is easily seen when comparing copied manuscripts.

You also failed to mention that the manuscript evidence for the NT is abundant, especially in relationship to other ancient texts.

The abundance of manuscripts, I would have thought, is obvious, not worth mentioning. The relation of Bible manuscripts to other ancient writings is completely irrelevant to the present discussion.

It is nonsense to contend that scribes made wholesale changes to the manuscripts in such a way that could not have been detected.

I made NO such contention! In fact, I said the errors were infrequent and minor not changing the core essence of the Gospels. Please don't attribute words to me that I didn't make.

but you said nothing to defend your position that you are right and hundreds of scholars have been essentially duped. It is just a ridiculous position,

Again, your words, not mine. I never said they were "duped". Over 2,000 years and several thousand manuscripts, it is simply common sense that the latest copies are not exact copies of the autographs. Add to this that the English translations aren't even in the same original language, and in English itself, words change their meanings over time. The word "gay" does not have the same meaning today as it had as recently as 50 years ago.

In fact, no autographs have ever been found to exist. Other than fragments of a verse or two, the sources date from the 3rd century and later. More than enough time for the earliest manuscripts to reflect the thinking and development of the religion as it evolved since the time of Jesus. Hence, the many disputes and arguments of the nature of Christ and of theology in general until the Church canonized the books of the Bible in the 4th century.

No, I don't play the "google it" game.

That's too bad. You could have gotten the information you asked about had you "played the game" by checking the internet. I note here that, of the many times I asked you to explain something, you usually referred me to the internet to verses from a book (the Bible) and rarely put your point in your own words.

If you know, then respond. If you don't know, then simply say you don't know. The "google it" response is usually a cheap way of trying to hide a lack of knowledge. That's why I don't play that game.

That is complete nonsense. You are letting your prejudices run your knowledge seeking. The question of Purgatory is not something like "Jesus said - I declare Purgatory is after heaven' Period. Full stop". You need to read the references in the Old and New Testaments to understand how the Catholic Church understands it. Now you'll say you don't care. Well, you cared enough to ask in the first place.

I have not said sinners go to hell. I have said, and it is in complete agreement with the words of Christ, that people go to hell for their sins. It is only in Christ that sins are forgiven.

Ok, good. Then my question remains what about those who never heard of Jesus? Since the beginning of time to the present day. And are they punished for all eternity?

Do you agree with the words of Christ from John 8? "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

I have never had a problem with believing that people die in their sins. The discussion is being hijacked again by you, going off on a tangent.

I'll make an agreement with you. I will again state my belief if you will guarantee us all that you will follow it with a clear statement of your belief.

Fine. But haven't you already stated your belief right above quoting John 8? However, I will state my belief on the issue right after you state yours.

[jlisenbe]

Again, your words, not mine. I never said they were "duped". Over 2,000 years and several thousand manuscripts, it is simply common sense that the latest copies are not exact copies of the autographs. Add to this that the English translations aren't even in the same original language, and in English itself, words change their meanings over time. The word "gay" does not have the same meaning today as it had as recently as 50 years ago.

In fact, no autographs have ever been found to exist. Other than fragments of a verse or two, the sources date from the 3rd century and later. More than enough time for the earliest manuscripts to reflect the thinking and development of the religion as it evolved since the time of Jesus. Hence, the many disputes and arguments of the nature of Christ and of theology in general until the Church canonized the books of the Bible in the 4th century.

You never used the word "duped", but you have contended that they have, unwittingly I suppose, just continued the translation of a Greek word that you claim is blatantly and wildly incorrect. So you place yourself against the hundreds of scholars in claiming that "eternal" actually means something else. In essence you are claiming they have been duped into simply accepting something false, and a "something" that is of critical importance. It just strikes me that they would have to be incredibly unprofessional to have done such a thing.

You still have not answered why hell is temporary, but heaven is eternal. The same word is used to describe both. You also have not found a scripture that describes a person going from hell to heaven after having paid the penalty of his sins.

According to Daniel Wallace, 43% of the NT is contained in manuscripts from the second century. That hardly amounts to "a verse or two". Surely you were exaggerating. https://voice.dts.edu/article/wallac...first-century/

I don't agree with your statement about the canon. The canon was likely largely settled by informal agreement some time during the second century. By the time the church formalized it, there was very little disagreement over what to accept.

The autographs do not exist? Name the work of antiquity for which the autographs are still in existence. It is the most common thing in the world for that to be the case. There is also no evidence that the text of the NT has been changed in any substantial way since the autographs, and certainly in no way that suggests it has "evolved" in meaning or content.

I'll make an agreement with you. I will again state my belief if you will guarantee us all that you will follow it with a clear statement of your belief.


Fine. But haven't you already stated your belief right above quoting John 8? However, I will state my belief on the issue right after you state yours.

We'll see how this goes. Yes, unsurprisingly I would agree with the words of Jesus in John 8, or in many other passages including the Matt. 25 passage, Rev. 20, and John 3. "The wages of sin is death." When Jesus came at first, He came to bring the message of salvation and to pay the penalty for our sins. He will come again for the purpose of judgment. It is going to be such a terrible event that the "heavens and earth" will flee away. Those who die in their sins will be sent to hell. Those whose sins have been forgiven through faith in Christ will spend eternity in the presence of God. It is the consistent message of the New Testament. Now the punishment will be proportional in a way I don't understand, and yet recognize as being stated in several places.

For further reference you can look at Psalm 21:8-9, Matthew 3:12; 13:49,50; 10:28; 18:8, Hebrews 10:31, Mt. 5:22, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

Your turn.