[Athos]

You're being evasive. The clear and obvious implication is that all are perishing, but that through believing in Christ, believers "shall not perish", obviously meaning that non-believers will. A second grader could see that.

Then you are a second grader seeing what is not there. Hoisted by his own petard!!

So where in the Bible does it tell us that non-believers are not going to be judged? I have provided a half-dozen or so quotes from Jesus where He disagrees with you, so I guess I'm going to stick with what He says.

You misquote me. Your position is non-believers will suffer eternal punishment in hell. Please stick to the issue. It is not Jesus that disagrees - it is YOU who disagrees.

The statements of Jesus are plain.

Yes, they couldn't be plainer. Yet you add to his statements to support your position.

You have made no references to scripture at all

I have referenced every scripture you presented and shown you the error of your ways by my reading of the exact words of Christ without adding my own ideas.

But just to take one more stab at it, in Revelation 20 we read, "And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." Now just for the record, I find that concept troubling, but since I didn't write the Bible, and since it is clear that God's wisdom far exceeds mine, I just simply accept it.

Stab, indeed! If you think these words are to be taken literally, that may be a large part of your problem. Even if they ARE taken literally, they do not prove the existence of an everlasting punishment in hell for those who do not believe as you do.

[jlisenbe]

I have referenced every scripture you presented and shown you the error of your ways by my reading of the exact words of Christ without adding my own ideas.

I went back and looked over the four pages prior to this one. You scarcely quote scripture. Your approach is more akin to running around, waving your arms, and offering your opinions. I'm just not sure how you handle the Matt. 25 passage which reads, "41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

Slice it any way you want, but Jesus is plainly stating that judgement is coming. If you want to say, as you did, that Jesus is commending good works as the path of salvation, then fine. There are good reasons to decide against that view, but there is still judgement coming.

If you think these words are to be taken literally, that may be a large part of your problem

The problem is that you don't think any scripture should be taken literally. I'll just stick to the words of Jesus.

[paraclete]

Jesus didn't come to have us all in agreement but to have us see the issues and respond to his actions, as Solomon said everything else is just vanity

[Wondergirl]

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed

Who is cursed? And why?

into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And that "eternal fire" is...?

[jlisenbe]

Can we first agree that there will be those are "cursed" and condemned to judgement?

[Wondergirl]

Can we first agree that there will be those are "cursed" and condemned to judgement?

For what will they be cursed?

[jlisenbe]

Not yet. Do we agree?

[Wondergirl]

My understanding of "cursed" and "judgement" and "who" I'm sure are different from yours. And I know you, like I did for years, very much want "evildoers" (who are not at all Christlike) to be cursed and judged. I don't think we can agree until we define terms in the same way.

[Athos]

I went back and looked over the four pages prior to this one. You scarcely quote scripture. Your approach is more akin to running around, waving your arms, and offering your opinions. I'm just not sure how you handle the Matt. 25 passage which reads, "41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

Here is the full quote which you originally posted.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did itto one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


I will answer it the same way I did the first time.

Nowhere in this lengthy section quoting Jesus does he condemn non-believers to eternal punishment in hell.

In fact, his judgment is against the "righteous" (believers), and not for unbelief but for inaction - not feeding the hungry, not helping the sick, not clothing the naked, etc.

The words of Jesus are perfectly clear.

Slice it any way you want, but Jesus is plainly stating that judgement is coming.

I never denied Jesus stated judgment is coming. What I DO deny is your belief that non-believers are condemned to eternal punishment in hell. How many times do I have to repeat that? It's a simple statement.

The problem is that you don't think any scripture should be taken literally.

That's not true. Again, you attribute to me positions I have not stated. Much of Scripture can be taken literally.

I'll just stick to the words of Jesus.

That's an excellent idea but you have yet to do that. In each instance of your Scripture references, you have added a meaning not contained in the words. I understand why you do that - it might even be subconscious - but you should treat Scripture with the respect it deserves. You have not done that. You have treated Scripture as a means to an end - namely, to support an un-Scriptural point.

[jlisenbe]

My understanding of "cursed" and "judgement" and "who" I'm sure are different from yours. And I know you, like I did for years, very much want "evildoers" (who are not at all Christlike) to be cursed and judged. I don't think we can agree until we define terms in the same way.

No point in exploring any of that until we can first agree that there will be those are "cursed" and condemned to judgement.

[jlisenbe]

In fact, his judgment is against the "righteous" (believers), and not for unbelief but for inaction - not feeding the hungry, not helping the sick, not clothing the naked, etc.

Part of his point is that those who called themselves "righteous" (such as the Pharisees) were, in fact, not righteous at all as demonstrated by their actions, and certainly are never referred to as "believers".

I never denied Jesus stated judgment is coming.

Against whom, and in what way?

[Wondergirl]

I believe there will be judgment = God's forming an opinion about someone or something by means of careful weighing of evidence.

[jlisenbe]

I believe there will be judgment = forming of an opinion about someone or something by means of careful weighing of evidence.

Evasive answer. Will they be condemned to judgement?

[Wondergirl]

Judgment isn't a negative. I believe all of us will be judged.

[Athos]

Part of his point is that those who called themselves "righteous" (such as the Pharisees) were, in fact, not righteous at all as demonstrated by their actions, and certainly are never referred to as "believers".

However you want to slice it, it does not mean unbelievers are condemned to everlasting punishment in hell.

Against whom, and in what way?

This is your reply to my comment "I never denied Jesus stated judgment is coming". I don't know what you mean.

[jlisenbe]

This is your reply to my comment "I never denied Jesus stated judgment is coming". I don't know what you mean.

Who will He judge, and what will be the consequences of that judgement?

Judgment isn't a negative. I believe all of us will be judged.

Still being evasive. Will that judgement entail any negative consequences? If so, what will they be?

[Wondergirl]

Who will He judge, and what will be the consequences of that judgement?

He will judge all of us, and His verdict is yet to be determined.

[jlisenbe]

He will judge all of us, and His verdict is yet to be determined.

Still evasive. Will the wicked by judged, and if so, in what way?

[Wondergirl]

Still being evasive. Will that judgement entail any negative consequences? If so, what will they be?

Watch "Judge Judy." In every trial, there are winners as well as losers.

[jlisenbe]

Oh well. You are unwilling to take a position. Too bad.