[paraclete]

Then why do we pay both state and federal income taxes by April 15th?

Someone thought it was a good idea to use OPM for their pet projects, it is called convenience, much easier to shear the sheep with the idea that everyone pays whether they benefit or not

[talaniman]

The rich are flush with money, the poor are even poorer, working people haven't gotten a raise in decades, and the roads and bridges and schools are crumbling, and Russia is screwing with the internet. The Dufus says he is doing a fantastic job, better than any president in history, The crowds go wild!

Don't look up!

[paraclete]

The rich are flush with money, the poor are even poorer, working people haven't gotten a raise in decades, and the roads and bridges and schools are crumbling, and Russia is screwing with the internet. The Dufus says he is doing a fantastic job, better than any president in history, The crowds go wild!

Don't look up!

Is that because pigs are flying and you might get pigdung in the eye? Or is it that meteorites are dashing across the sky?

Your country is enjoying a better economic climate, who can say if Trump contributed or the actions of others contributed but confidence is up, always a good thing. I think your problems stem from the distributed nature of your political scene, you are over governed and this always leads to a certain lethagy in public affairs as blame is assigned to others. Trump is not responsibility for problems at a local level, he wasn't elected to the school board, or your state or local government. Reality says there is alack of funds despite record spending and you have to ask, how much does a large illegal immigrant population contribute to the problems, how much does disadvantage contribute to the problems. Anyone can identify a problem, taking action is the difficult part

[talaniman]

Is that because pigs are flying and you might get pigdung in the eye? Or is it that meteorites are dashing across the sky?

That's not rain falling on our heads!

Your country is enjoying a better economic climate, who can say if Trump contributed or the actions of others contributed but confidence is up, always a good thing.

Lots of venting going on for sure, both sides, but the war of ideas rage on, and the data says the economy has been steady and growing for a few years now but perception is everything and the fringe is giddy with their new star. They were the sourpusses for many years bring everybody down and even now are talking crazy with conspiracies to keep their spirits up. My side always has the hope that steady pragmatic progress is better than brimstone fire and fairy dust. That's why the Dufus must feed red meat to them constantly with his hillbilly in person rallies across the country. Repubs let him spout off, because they got the tax cuts for the cronies, and will pick a slew of federal judges and the prized supreme court judges. They are all nervous awaiting the next election though, because they may lose power, and MONEY, and a chance to push more of their wish list. They are also afraid the artificial juicing of the economy will offset the tax cuts and the tariff wars and PUTIN will bite them in the butt, and they get blamed.

I think your problems stem from the distributed nature of your political scene, you are over governed and this always leads to a certain lethagy in public affairs as blame is assigned to others.

The constant drumbeat of bleating idiots is louder than the nerds and wonks at this time and for that we can thank the Dufus. Actually state governors and legislatures run the country, as they control the elections and electoral college, and set the priorities in their locations.

Trump is not responsibility for problems at a local level, he wasn't elected to the school board, or your state or local government.

To some extent you are correct, but some localities are doing better than others and a few are deserted economic failures, specifically rural one industry small towns that lost that one industry and the lives that fed it. Repubs have long consolidated local and state power though to elect the Dufus. Let's face it The Dufus won, maybe with Russian help, but mostly with his loony fringe right wing base of racists and idiots that he totally unleashed on the republican party. He destroyed them and now it's the DUFUS party. The good news is they are loud and visible and can be identified. They've always existed.

Reality says there is alack of funds despite record spending and you have to ask, how much does a large illegal immigrant population contribute to the problems, how much does disadvantage contribute to the problems.

I don't worry about 10% or less of the population hiding in cracks and shadows having much impact on anything other than being a racist scare tactic for loonies that want a wall you can see from space as a gift from those illegal immigrants. Now the issue of poverty and the wage gap, that's a biggie. Growing poverty is not good in a consumer driven economy. Doesn't effect exports though but tariffs do.

I have to rebut the lack of funds reality, it's just the opposite, rich guys are FLUSH with it and manipulate the economy to keep it that way. The problem has never been lack of funds, but lack of distribution. Out right stealing doesn't help either.

Anyone can identify a problem, taking action is the difficult part

Especially when there is opposition to the solution, or it costs someone money.

[tomder55]

Then why do we pay both state and federal income taxes by April 15th?

The real question is how did the nation survive before 1913 when the 16th amendment became the law of the land ?

[tomder55]

Someone thought it was a good idea to use OPM for their pet projects, it is called convenience, much easier to shear the sheep with the idea that everyone pays whether they benefit or not

Well here there was a temporary income tax of 3% during the Civil War. But the movement to go to confiscatory income taxing began just about the same time as the progressive movement began getting it's legs .(what a coincidence!)

you are over governed and this always leads to a certain lethagy in public affairs as blame is assigned to others.

AMEN !

[paraclete]

I see Tom understands

[talaniman]

Loonies of a feather stick together. Tom hates taxes and thinks everyman for himself, a recipe for chaos if you have a weak central government with 50 sovereign states. We had our bloody war over it, and even though it's less bloody we still conflict on how the government can function best and states can be do their own thing under the umbrella of the central government. It takes a strong central government here, to keep order and apply the law and provide equal protection under that law.

Some disagree, and that's fine since there is always an election looming to voice your opinion and stake your claim to whatever you believe in. Fact is as a country grows, so must the central government, and that you will realize Clete as your land becomes more populated. So no matter what side of the fence you are on you still need a referee to keep a semblance of order, or we have another bloody war. War without the blood is much preferable.

Don't you both agree?

[tomder55]

I do not agree that it is necessary to grow the central government as a nation grows .I think the government should stay within it's constitutional mandate ;that those powers are few and enumerated ,and that power is derived from the people ;and that liberties are God granted and not granted by government and that the government that governs least governs best .

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.”

James Madison

,

Federalist

45, 1788

“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.” –

John Adam

[talaniman]

I get you Tom, but the opinions of those very fine founding fellows has long ago been replaced, or upgraded if you will, because of some very country changing events, and developments. You have to admit that the nation has grown and changed and the old horse and buggy thinking cannot work now except in museums or celebration in honor of times past.

I would expect one that holds the value of a dollar to be self evident can acknowledge that.

[tomder55]

nah their ideas about liberty and governance are universal and timeless

[Wondergirl]

nah their ideas about liberty and governance are universal and timeless

The Founding Fathers didn't have a clue that companies would poison our lakes and streams; that special interest groups would want to arm men, women, and even children; and that 326 million people would be living here in 2018. Thus, we need a strong central government to make uniform the solutions needed.

[tomder55]

if you don't think special interests were a concern with the Framers then you haven't read the history . The first special interest groups were the political parties themselves and they have always been primarily special interest groups . Madison in Federalist 10 made it very clear how necessary interest groups are .

“

Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires.

“

I think the Founding Fathers would be very surprised to learn that lobbying is something that is looked down upon. They would have thought that lobbying is foreseeable as the government grew in size and complexity. That is why the right to lobby(

"to petition the Government" ) is in the 1st amendment. There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting the creation and enforcement of environmental laws . They easily anticipated and looked forward to a growing nation . That is precisely why the Articles of Confederation needed to be scrapped .

[Athos]

I think you missed the point of Wondergirl's post. Some things the Framers anticipated, others they did not.

They were named Jefferson and Hamilton and Madison - not Nostradamus. 1789 is not 2018 and never will be.

[paraclete]

1789 is not 2018 and never will be.

A point I have made to Tom on many occasions but he has faith in the founders to discern all things

[tomder55]

I understood her point very well . I reject the premise . I'll let Washington say it because he said it better than I can.

"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution, which at any time exists, ‘till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. … If in the opinion of the people the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed.

"— George Washington

[Athos]

I understood her point very well . I reject the premise . I'll let Washington say it because he said it better than I can.

"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution, which at any time exists, ‘till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. … If in the opinion of the people the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed.

"— George Washington

Very nice words, but let us not forget it was that very usurpation that allowed Washington to lead the faction that broke away from the legally constituted government of King George.

Nothing is written in stone.

[paraclete]

So Tom what are you doing about the current usurpation? Washington forgets he earned his position by usurpation

[tomder55]

I'm in favor of amending the constitution by either the Congressional method or by the convention of the states .That is the constitutional way to make change .As for Washington and the Founder's so called usurpation ,I'll quote the Declaration of Independence .

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[Athos]

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


.................................................. ......


But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

You say you reject that premise (paraphrased as "nothing is forever") yet you quote Jefferson's own words supporting the very premise you are objecting to.

If I am missing something, I'm sure you'll tell me.