[speechlesstx]

the younger they are ,the easier to indoctrinate and program.
Barack Hussein Obama Mmm Mmm Mmm - YouTube

I must obey government officials at all times.

[talaniman]

Thanks Speech that was a good link you provided even if I disagree with the assessment of the data presented. I want to make clear my stand on the relationship between long term poverty, and education.

Poverty breeds less opportunities and options to learn, as fiscal constraints and the effect thereof will always affect the children in the most pronounced ways. Even a smart kid has to go home to the condition of their household realities, which may, I believe have more impact than the 8 hours they spend at school. Public Schools have budgetary constraints more according to the conditions of where their funding comes from, and for fact reduced funds from public to private puts the students who don't get accepted into these charter schools at clear disadvantage that has yet to be addressed.

The question becomes should the government shift the costs of supporting charter schools over public for savings and outcomes? If they do they better get more charter schools up and running for those left behind through no fault of their own, basically the luck of the draw. All kids NEED the opportunity to grow and learn, not just the ones who win the lottery.

Kids should never be the losers in this, even if their communities cannot keep up with the costs of fixing roofs and gyms in an aging infrastructure. In a country that can build prisons and not schools ask yourself what's wrong with that picture. No money, no opportunity, and that's the simple fact. When we had 50,000 factories for middle class wages, people could work for themselves, but those factories are gone, and haven't been replaced for ordinary blue collar folks.

You know the ones who go to work at 18, and spend a lifetime raising families to send to college. Those people are dying, Just as the middle class wages have died, and what's left is Walmarts and McDonalds. Minimum wage is not conducive to providing opportunity, hell, the government has to subsidize those workers so they can eat AND pay rent or do anything else for that matter.

That's why I relate poverty to lack of opportunities, and can only hope you see that social gains can only come from increased opportunities and options for poor people. Sorry to be so long winded, just to say MORE good paying jobs is the answer. Look around. There is more than enough work to do.

[speechlesstx]

I just have to ask what have all these government programs done to help poor people? The assessment I gave is by a guy who is on your side in this and he has a point that should be heeded if people trulty want the best for our children.

Unfortunately, supporters of Preschool for All, including some academics who are way out in front of what the evidence says and know it, have turned a blind eye to the mixed and conflicting nature of research findings on the impact of pre-k for four-year-olds. Instead, they highlight positive long term outcomes of two boutique programs from 40-50 years ago that served a couple of hundred children. And they appeal to recent research with serious methodological flaws that purports to demonstrate that district preschool programs in places such as Tulsa and the Abbott districts in New Jersey are effective. Ignored, or explained away, are the results from the National Head Start Impact Study (a large randomized trial), which found no differences in elementary school outcomes between children who had vs. had not attended Head Start as four-year-olds. They also ignore research showing negative impacts on children who receive child care supported through the federal child development block grant program, as well as evidence that the universal pre-k programs in Georgia and Oklahoma, which are closest to what the Obama administration has proposed, have had , at best, only small impacts on later academic achievement.

His money line, "Poor children deserve effective programs, not just programs that are well-intentioned."

[talaniman]

Doesn't matter whose side he is own. I DISAGREE, for the reasons given. Poverty breeds less opportunities and options to learn

[speechlesstx]

How does a well-intentioned program that doesn't work ease poverty?

[cdad]

Doesn't matter whose side he is own. I DISAGREE, for the reasons given. Poverty breeds less opportunities and options to learn

So let me make sure Im understanding what your saying. Poverty means that the children can't get an education even if schooled properly? I know that isnt true. I also know that a lot of poverty is attitude based and not education based. Lets face it. The social programs are the new slave masters. When a woman can pop out a few children and make the equivilent of 60K a year by not doing nothing OR get up off the couch and bust thier rump to make 45K unassisted. Where is there real choice?

Why does your side insist that throwing money at something will always solve the problem ? Why not focus on getting these poor people the hand up they need rather then spoon feeding them pablum to win an election. Havent you beat them enough with your rhetoric.

[Wondergirl]

Why not focus on getting these poor people the hand up they need

Please give details.

[talaniman]

Lack of middle class jobs is the root cause of the problem. I can fully accept that everyone isn't college material, but subjugation to low wages shouldn't be a punishment.

Why should tax payers have to subsides wages for multi billion dollar corporations? What's wrong with that picture?

[cdad]

Please give details.

It would be on a needs basis even going so far as to educate the parents so they can participate in helping the child. Education isnt rocket science but you do have to ensure that the person being taught actually understands. In many schools today they skip over that part. And if the parent at home isnt up to speed then the education suffers. Education alone will not pull them out they have much to accomplish on thier own. It can be done.

[cdad]

Why should tax payers have to subsides wages for multi billion dollar corporations? What's wrong with that picture?

If it is the one that gets them off the welfare train and allows them to get the push that they need then Im all for it.

[talaniman]

What if the single mom with two kids has to work? Help with transportation after work? Baby sitters? A suit for an interview? Are those legit needs?

Your understanding of what a poor person needs is obvious.

[speechlesstx]

Lack of middle class jobs is the root cause of the problem. I can fully accept that everyone isn't college material, but subjugation to low wages shouldn't be a punishment.

Why should tax payers have to subsides wages for multi billion dollar corporations? What's wrong with that picture?

Why should taxpayers have to subsidize deadbeats?

[paraclete]

Your understanding of what a poor person needs is obvious.

No it isn't tal, they have no understanding, they haven't walked that road

[speechlesstx]

What if the single mom with two kids has to work? Help with transportation after work? Baby sitters? A suit for an interview? Are those legit needs?

Your understanding of what a poor person needs is obvious.

Why so many single moms?

[Wondergirl]

It would be on a needs basis even going so far as to educate the parents so they can participate in helping the child. Education isnt rocket science but you do have to ensure that the person being taught actually understands. In many schools today they skip over that part. And if the parent at home isnt up to speed then the education suffers. Education alone will not pull them out they have much to accomplish on thier own. It can be done.

But now the kids don't get a good start at home in being read to, learning to build a block tower, helping Mom grocery shop, doing chores (even toddlers can help), printing letters and drawing pictures to send to Grandma, helping with simple jobs cooking and baking, etc. Parents don't have "time" for such nonsense. Yet that's all part of the learning process and gets the kids ready for school and socializing. (I taught Pre-K for three years. Ask me anything about what kids that age don't know.) We need to teach new parents how to parent (libraries try to do that).

And I really want to be in charge of American education. We need to hire teachers who know what the heck they are doing -- know how to speak well and write well and teach well. Standards need to get tougher. If they don't make the cut, they are OUT! The arrangement/schedule of the school day needs help, which means the curriculum needs help.

Class size needs to be smaller (job creation) so each child gets the help and instruction he needs. I attended a three-room country school with three grades to a room. There were eleven in my class. We all turned out to be successful in our own way, some as professionals and others in technical or various "blue-collar" fields. We all knew our times tables without thinking about it. With three grades in a room, we got to hear the same material three times as it was taught to each grade. Now students are herded into huge consolidated schools, and the small neighborhood schools are gone -- all in the name of money and efficiency. *gack*

[cdad]

No it isn't tal, they have no understanding, they haven't walked that road

Really? You think it is always someone else who grew up poor or became penniless during thier lifetime? Some of us have been there and then some. Im thinking your the one that remains in the dark about what a person can accomplish if they put thier mind to it. Im not saying its easy. But it can be done.

[speechlesstx]

What's the class size now? We averaged 30-35 or more in my day and we did just fine. But I agree we need to hire teachers that know what they're doing. That may be tough since part of the reason college grads can't find jobs is no one needs people with a degree in art history.

[talaniman]

Better hope the boss gives you time off, to get to that teachers meeting and you have a car just in case you miss the bus. A twenty minute car ride can be a 3 hour bus ride, and a 15 minute walk after.

If there is a bus.

[Wondergirl]

no one needs people with a degree in art history.

Plus they can't spell, don't know the names of the eight parts of speech, don't know how to diagram a sentence, have execrable handwriting, can't put together an outline, and probably pick their nose when they don't think anyone is looking. And they have to deal with students with peanut allergies, fetal alcohol syndrome, various real or whomped-up mental illnesses, latch-key kids with no home life, cell phones (easy cheating on tests), no dress code, and so on..

[teacherjenn4]

What's the class size now? We averaged 30-35 or more in my day and we did just fine. But I agree we need to hire teachers that know what they're doing. That may be tough since part of the reason college grads can't find jobs is no one needs people with a degree in art history.

I have 30 kindergarteners in my class in CA. My school opened last year and we have one of the top test scores in the state. We aren't in a fancy area, and we're a public school. How did we do it? We all left our nice, established teaching positions to try to make a difference. We wear uniforms and require parents to get their kiddos to school. We must be doing something right!!