[talaniman]

Who pays for the balance of the cost of the medical expenses for those who are going to be fined... oops I mean taxed (by the IRS ,which doesn't have the authority to collect the fine except through income tax refunds .) Who pays for your so called single payer alternative ? The same ones evidently who pay for it in the system we had before Obamacare. So how did your incompetent screwing up of a system that most people liked change that equation ?

That's a good question Tom, but we both know that insurance companies pass the losses onto the insured through higher cost. They are so good they still profit in the billions of dollars a year. But lets be real. Did you like the old system, or did you just tolerate it because the alternatives were unimaginable?

We as a nation have been talking of making changes for decades, why? Because of rising costs. As a nation why are we NOT outraged about the price of an aspirin when we are in the hospital?

[tomder55]

That's a good question Tom, but we both know that insurance companies pass the losses onto the insured through higher cost. They are so good they still profit in the billions of dollars a year. But lets be real. Did you like the old system, or did you just tolerate it because the alternatives were unimaginable?

We as a nation have been talking of making changes for decades, why? Because of rising costs. As a nation why are we NOT outraged about the price of an aspirin when we are in the hospital?

I would've been happier with greater choice. Yeah I subsidized a lot of people's health for many years buying full coverage that I did not need or desire. I have for years paid for NY mandates that most other states did not require. I would've been happier with the option of just paying out of pocket for the few times I went to the doctor with just paying for catastrophic insurance . My tax money has always paid for the needs of the truly needy as throughout my entire adult life there have been provisions . So that is not the pressing need .
All you are really doing is just creating another wealth transfer from the young to the old ;often from the poor worker or middle class worker to the more affluent elderly... So while the young are struggling with poor paying jobs in the ObamaEconomy ,trying to start families ,save for homes.. begin their lives... they are subsidizing the insurance of the elderly... MANY of which are living the good life in retirement communities ,making decision about which restaurant to dine at ;where to take their next vacation ,when to trade in their 2 year old car .

[talaniman]

I have run into a lot of not so affluent elderly people whose only investment is in pill cutters, and walkers. They were hardly rich back in the day, even less so now.

[Wondergirl]

MANY of which are living the good life in retirement communities ,making decision about which restaurant to dine at ;where to take their next vacation ,when to trade in their 2 year old car .

Wow! I'd sure like to know some of these people. I'm guessing it's a pretty small percentage of us elderly. I haven't seen any around Chicagoland. The wealthier suburbs around here contain young families who are often Asian. In area retirement communities, residents hope they can make it to the dining room without falling over -- otherwise, they will get shuffled off to the extended care section.

[tomder55]

Suggest you look up the generational breakdown of disposable incomes . According to Georgia State University's Center for Mature Consumer Studies,the elderly controls 75 percent of America's wealth and 70 percent of its disposable income . What is being set up here is that the coming retirement of the baby boomers (the most affluent generation in our history ) will get their health care subsidized until the death panel deems them a burden.. Then they will be denied.

[smoothy]

Problem is few ot the "truly Needy" are really truly needy... most of them are lazy bums scamming the system. Same with a lot of the people lining up for handouts from the Catholic Church... some of the charity ends up being given to friends and even family at the expense of others more deserving of it.

And yes I say that because I actually know someone show does exactly that... and I know the person on the mooching end as well.

Something I find truely disgusting.....not to mention the fact its so overt because everyone at the church know both of the people because they are both longtime members of the church ( over 40 years in fact) and they all know the recipient is the son of someone that works in the group doleing out the handouts.....and that he actually has a pretty good job for the area.

[Wondergirl]

the elderly controls 75 percent of America's wealth and 70 percent of its disposable income .

How many elderly are there (over what age is considered elderly?), and what percentage of those have this wealth?

i.e., total elderly = ? wealthy elderly = ?

[paraclete]

So this comes down to saying the 1% in american are elderly, so when they shuffle off we can expect a more generous attitude?

[talaniman]

Greed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

As a secular psychological concept, greed is, similarly, an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs. The degree of inordinance is related to the inability to control the reformulation of "wants" once desired "needs" are eliminated. Erich Fromm described greed as "a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction." It is typically used to criticize those who seek excessive material wealth, although it may apply to the need to feel more excessively moral, social, or otherwise better than someone else.
The purpose for greed, and any actions associated with it, is possibly to deprive others of potential means (perhaps, of basic survival and comfort) or future opportunities accordingly, or to obstruct them therefrom, as a measure of enhanced discretion via majority belongings-having and majority competitive advantage, thus insidious and tyrannical or otherwise having negative connotation. Alternately, the purpose could be defense or counteraction from such dangerous, potential leverage in matters of questionable agreeability. A consequence of greedy activity may be inability to sustain any of the costs or burdens associated with that which has been or is being accumulated, leading to a backfire or destruction, whether of self or more generally. So, the level of "inordinance" of greed pertains to the amount of vanity, malice or burden associated with it.

Trickle down economics.

[smoothy]

However it doesn't apply to Democrat politians, Hollywood or other lefties of means... like the Kennedies... because its not greed when THEY do it.

[tomder55]

How many elderly are there (over what age is considered elderly?), and what percentage of those have this wealth?

i.e., total elderly = ? wealthy elderly = ?

As a percentage, a lot more than the youth who are trying to survive the ObamaEconomy.. the ones the Dems think will pay for this whole Ponzi scheme . Not only that... since the Baby boomers decided to off their babies ,there are fewer of these unemployed and underemployed millennials to support them .

[Wondergirl]

since the Baby boomers decided to off their babies ,there are fewer of these unemployed and underemployed millennials to support them .

That's not why. Family size has gotten smaller and not because of abortion. Many women my age wanted more kids, but the husbands claimed they couldn't afford more, so we women read books at night instead of...you know.

[Wondergirl]

As a percentage, a lot more than the youth who are trying to survive the ObamaEconomy.

We old people are trying to dig out of the Bush Economy. Here are your elderly income stats (gee, where should I jet to this weekend?) --

Profile of Older Americans: 2012

[paraclete]

We old people are trying to dig out of the Bush Economy. Here are your elderly income stats (gee, where should I jet to this weekend?) --

Profile of Older Americans: 2012

Those are interesting, but still there are some with little income, which with availability of SS, etc, begs the question, why?

[tomder55]

Since most are retired ,there would be a skewed stat about income. Even the Compost recognizes that when measuring wealth ,the elderly over all are doing better than the population at large.
Senior citizens? financial woes are exaggerated - Washington Post
Pew confirms what I'm saying .
The Rising Age Gap in Economic Well-Being | Pew Social & Demographic Trends

The typical U.S. household headed by a person 65 years of age or older is 47 times wealthier than that of a household headed by someone under 35.

[paraclete]

Since most are retired ,there would be a skewed stat about income. Even the Compost recognizes that when measuring wealth ,the elderly over all are doing better than the population at large.
Senior citizens? financial woes are exaggerated - Washington Post
Pew confirms what I'm saying .
The Rising Age Gap in Economic Well-Being | Pew Social & Demographic Trends

The typical U.S. household headed by a person 65 years of age or older is 47 times wealthier than that of a household headed by someone under 35.

Ok so the stats show 3% with income less than $5,000. Under your theory then as these are better off than the average community there must be vast numbers with income below $5000. Not much of a utopia is it, if the old people hog all the wealth. Just think having an income of $5,000, the luxury

While we are discussing old people stats consider these

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-2...ension/5051082

We have lots of old people who would like just a basic pension

[Wondergirl]

Those are interesting, but still there are some with little income, which with availability of SS, etc, begs the question, why?

Some people never had SS taken out of their income (part-time or because of the occupation), some never worked for pay (housewives/mothers), etc. For instance, my mom has no SS and is dependent on a portion of my deceased father's very small pension.

[paraclete]

Some people never had SS taken out of their income (part-time or because of the occupation), some never worked for pay (housewives/mothers), etc. For instance, my mom has no SS and is dependent on a portion of my deceased father's very small pension.

Right, no universal right to a pension then?

[Wondergirl]

Right, no universal right to a pension then?

Pension depends on the company you worked for. She never worked outside the home (except for a few months of picking peaches and apples at local orchards), and no, no universal pension.

[paraclete]

Pension depends on the company you worked for. She never worked outside the home (except for a few months of picking peaches and apples at local orchards), and no, no universal pension.

Yes I think I understand the peculiarities of scrap heap thinking. We take a different view, having removed basic entitlement from the prerogative of the employer. Terminology plays a part here in gaining a meeting of the minds. Social Security here gives rise to an aged pension, the qualification is associated with citizenship not employment, the contributions were long ago rolled into the taxation system. Employment based schemes are termed superannuation and give rise to what are termed allocated pensions. There is a mandatory superannuation contribution required of an employer, which gives rise to a personal account held in trust by the government through nominated organisations.(in your world 401k, I think)

This approach carries through into our thinking about health care